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Female specific tuition - useful or tosh?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
I do know we probably ski at a wider stance due to our pelvic position than men do, but out from that it seems to be the same for both male and females as to how they learn.

My missus ski's with her legs closer than mine. But she is pretty much self taught skiing in Austria whereas I was taught by Evolution2 in Tignes in the early 90's (effectively). She's good in the moguls but I've encouraged her to spread em a bit elsewhere!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
And if you read that last comment as anything than skiing related, it's just your own dirty mind.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Layne, Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing , yes some women are great at keeping the skis together, but in general women would tend to ski at a little wider stance, not so much anyone should notice, oh wait, maybe since the carving skis, it isn't as obvious. I learned on long straight ski's, often wonder how I ever turned them, lol,
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biddpyat wrote:
... but in general women would tend to ski at a little wider stance...
Is that true?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Well, I was told this as a younger skier, way back when god was a baby, and I believed it. So I also have read it on a few books, and while I know our pelvis is wider and shallower, it would probably relate to how how our legs are compared to that of a male,. So with that all in mind a natural position for us would be a tiny bit wider in hop to ankle than for a man. So I went googling and found this

This angle describes how the upper and lower leg bones meet at the knee joint. Because
women have wider child bearing hips, the top of the upper leg bones are set widely apart.
In order to meet the vertical lower leg bones, they lie at a significant angle. The result is
often a knock kneed stance which makes it hard to tip the ski on edge. Women who skid
their turns, make stem turns, or find that their skis skid out from under them may be
battling the knock-kneed syndrome. This is referred to as having a large Q ANGLE. They
simply cannot make the moves that come so easily to men whose knees and ankles usually
align squarely on top of their skis. Women with a knock-kneed posture may find that a
wider stance helps their skiing. In addition, studies show that women with pronounced Q
ANGLES are prone to knee injuries.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
@biddpyat, because of a larger Q angle, the actual stance width at the feet is not as wide as might be assumed due to pelvic width.

I'm not aware of any discussion within instructor circles that women have a wider stance, and my own experience is that there is no obvious gender-based difference in stance width. But I'm not a biomenchanical expert, so happy to be corrected, but I think differences in stance width is much more dependent on the individual skier than their gender. Some ski a bit wider, some ski a bit narrow. Provided their stance width is not causing problems (too wide and too narrow can cause issues), then I don't think skiers should conform to a particular picture of what is the "ideal" stance width.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I don't think it is as important now anyway, with waisted skis, and as an instructor I can imagine that it is of little importance, but a lot of women wonder when learning why they seem to hold to a wider stance. In my case I was told I was skiing correctly just that I used this wider stance and that was the reason I was given, it may be unimportant. I no longer ski like that and practice at keeping my skis closer has worked,. It is no longer needed to have your ankles almost touching as we tend to ski ( male and female) with a wider stance now anyway. As I said though in an earlier post, I can't see any advantage to a gender specific instructor, just a good instructor, and out from a small difference ( perhaps) in our pelvis I don't see any difference to men than women when It comes to learning.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
biddpyat wrote:
As I said though in an earlier post, I can't see any advantage to a gender specific instructor, just a good instructor, and out from a small difference ( perhaps) in our pelvis I don't see any difference to men than women when It comes to learning.
Agreed.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@johnE, Hi, thanks. I'm a determined wee beastie really. Commiserations on your injury. Grade 4 - that's not good. Least with a 5 mine was too high to do much further damage. You have my warmest wishes for a speedy recovery.
What kind of op did you go for? Modified Weaver Dunn or full ligament recon? How long since your injury?
My complicated reasons for not getting fixed are detailed in another post (angry rant) somewhere on here rolling eyes Basically it was a mixture of my insight and access to medical literature, stuborn nature and initial mismanagement by fracture clinic... It has taken two years, but it is now tolerable. It's mostly pain free and with limited numbness or functional disability. It meant I had to stop nursing (ironically I worked in a major trauma centre rolling eyes) as the recovery time was too long and I wasn't going to risk my right arm function for a job... I was ready to stop anyway but that's another (Jeremy Hunt are you listening?) story... I think for me I made the right choice, luckily I have a very supportive partner (Surgeon), but I can see that others might well need to choose the surgical option. It is astonishing how detaching some tiny ligaments can be such an enbuggerance!! Initially recovery is just stretching and then slowly progressing to doing more. Don't contemplate anything other than what you're advised and cycling for around 6 months. It is frustrating but you need to let the scar tissue form and heal - it will help in the long run... It is going to take a while and you will want to rush the recovery but all I can say is don't! Take it slowly, listen to your body and be kind to yourself. After about 9 months and seeing a very good sport physio in Edinburgh I started hitting the gym (not doing any weights!) body weight stuff is good and I can now row and swim (not crawl) I do mainly cardio, core and leg stuff - arms taken care of by the rower but I'm 'a girl' so I don't need big arms. I can use most of the gym equipment and have normal function 99% of the time now so It's not all bad!
Accepting the limitations and concessions we need to make - well that's another thing!
You may have a faster over all recovery time as you've had surgery but you will need to be much more careful with how you go about strengthening it.
Good luck with it and DM me or go to injury/rehab section if you need anymore info at any point. Very Happy
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@frankEvb, I entered an icy mogul field too fast and fell on my shoulder last Easter only 3 hours into a 9 day holiday. The rest of the holiday was spent pootling around on easy pistes.

I have had a lockdown
http://youtube.com/v/Ep--anDpvfc which doesn't involve any healing of ligaments. My shoulder was funtioning at about 80% with a full range of movement. It was the pushing down that hurt not the pulling up. I could do chin ups but not pushups. Since my principal physical activity is rock climbing, I could do some moves well, but others not at all. A bit of a risk high up a route. I hope to be climbing again come this summer and skiing in 2 months.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rob@rar wrote:
@biddpyat, because of a larger Q angle, the actual stance width at the feet is not as wide as might be assumed due to pelvic width.

I'm not aware of any discussion within instructor circles that women have a wider stance, and my own experience is that there is no obvious gender-based difference in stance width. But I'm not a biomenchanical expert, so happy to be corrected, but I think differences in stance width is much more dependent on the individual skier than their gender. Some ski a bit wider, some ski a bit narrow. Provided their stance width is not causing problems (too wide and too narrow can cause issues), then I don't think skiers should conform to a particular picture of what is the "ideal" stance width.

I sometimes wonder if some women copy the typical male stance width rather than just going with what feels right for themself. Female only groups might avoid this.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I'd go nucking futs in a female only group.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@biddpyat, Thank you for all your very interesting input. I also have a wide stance - has always just felt safer to me!? But then I have relatively big feet and 'apparently your foot length is equal to your forearm and pelvic girdle width (!) prior to Primagravida So there may just be something in it wink
I would also go slightly futs in that situation but then it has been said before am a little bit of a nucking futter rolling eyes Madeye-Smiley
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@johnE, Thank you for posting that video I found it very interesting. Surgilig was about the only thing I'd have considered - had it been offered to me. Was your lockdown done on NHS?
Initially was living in Southampton and then moved to Edinburgh, sought second opinion in Portsmouth and the only op I was offered on NHS was a modified WeaverDunn... Austrian doc immediately post accident suggested surgilig with own ligament recon done within two weeks... Just goes to prove the postcode lottery when it comes to NHS treatment options these days rolling eyes
I only too well understand the pisser that is an accident that robs you of your Holliday! Mine happened 9am day 8 of a 2 week holiday - was gutted. The only skiing I did after mine was to the lift to get down and off to hospital...

https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/44829/virtanen_dissertation.pdf?sequence=1

Don't know if you've already found this but it's a link to an Ortho Surgeon's Dissertation on these injuries - includes success failure rates for various options... I don't know if you speak 'medic'... or even surgeon for that matter... and so it may be a bit 'niche' but you seem clued up so I'm sure you'll be able to make enough sense of it. Any questions just ask.
I'd be very interested to see how you recover from this so please keep me posted. Apparently we make hens teath look common so we gotta stick together! Very Happy
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@frankEvb, Yes, it was done on the NHS. Initially it was planned for October, 6 months after the accident, to see if I could cope, but it was delayed until Tuesday. Right from the begining the consultant treated me as an adult and described in great detail what was going to happen. He even gave me some youtube links. I have no medical training but as an engineering academic I am very familular with academic papers,statistics and carpentry.

After the fall I sat there for a while, feeling the lump (the collar bone) then skied down to Arc 1800 and had a cup of tea. Then went to the doctors. Even the nurse who wecomed us knew exactly what it was. The doctor said it was a grade I/II, the registrar at the local trama clinic said II/III and I may get away with conservative treatment. He refered me to the consultant who went back to the French X rays and rated it IV.

Skiing with just one arm wasn't too difficult and I was able to ski any run including blacks that were pisted. The only real problem was mogul fields where I found I need a pole plant. Oh I also needed a lot of help getting dressed.

Thank you for the link to the thesis
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
pieman666 wrote:
+1 for the psych pov, my wife is a much better skier than she allowed herself to be

Same for Mrs L. OTOH, our two (adult) daughters are super-confident (more than me) - and an adult male relative is very timorous. I suspect that the psych aspect has more to do with age of taking up the sport than with sex.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@johnE, You're welcome - glad you'll be able to make sense of it - might help guide you as to how much to push your shoulder in recovery and after... It's the most concise, recent literature review available (least it was 2 years ago)... There is much other useful info to be found in the articles cited as references. Most of the more easily accessible advice on the web is both conflicting and unhelpful.

Given my background I knew what I'd done imediately from the range of movement I had and the lump! I also knew I needed to get it in a sling ASAP and not move it (ideally) at all - to give it a fighting chance and stop the flail doing more damage... Being robbed of your dominant arm, as you say, makes the mundane things like dressing/eating a real chore (especially for your partner!)
It was actually rather nice having an enforced 'restful holiday in the mountains' I got to really appreciate just being there.
I hope you heal well and make a good enough recovery to do the things you wish to do. I have to say that the idea of you rock climbing any time soon concerns me! I may be wrong, but I sense from your post you are a determined kinda chap who's keen to return to situation normal as soon as possible... I've been there. Unfortunately there really is nothing gained from pushing this and potentially a lot to loose. I don't mean to come across as paternalistic but it's my honest opinion both as fellow sufferer of this injury and a trauma practitioner.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@johnE, Thanks for posting that video I found it very interesting.
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I've generally been taught by men but had a female instructor last year. She was all about the perfect turns rather than the 'just follow me' and she improved my technique considerably by just explaining things rather differently than I'm used to but my take on it was that actually, she was just a really good instructor for me. My confidence is pretty good on-piste, there's very little I won't have a go at, thanks to the gung-ho approach of previous instructors so I think I've appreciated the mix of teachers I've had.
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