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Sore/stiff legs!

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hurtle wrote:
I used to suffer from a lot of leg pain, now I rarely do so. The difference is that I now ski better than I did.


Hubby had a couple of private lessons when we went skiing last week. Instructor said he was getting tired legs because he was squatting/sitting down too much and not leaning enough when turning. Corrected his technique and his legs stopped aching!
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So the conclusion of the forum for the OP is twofold, either way he OP :

1) Is a rubbish skier and needs to get some lessons; or,

2) is not as fit as he thinks he is and needs to mtfu

we're a helpful bunch 😀
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@emwmarine, Laughing
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@Snowy123, "not leaning" enough?

Shurely shome mishtake...
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I may split the difference and just drink a lot of red wine in the evening..... Toofy Grin

I spoke to a physio today who's a good runner (2:51 marathon at the age of 51!) and he says it's due to the altitude and the oxygen going to the organs thus depriving the muscles and not getting the crap out of them. Cold shower (on legs) then sauna may help. That and brufen.
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martinm wrote:
I may split the difference and just drink a lot of red wine in the evening..... Toofy Grin

I spoke to a physio today who's a good runner (2:51 marathon at the age of 51!) and he says it's due to the altitude and the oxygen going to the organs thus depriving the muscles and not getting the crap out of them. Cold shower (on legs) then sauna may help. That and brufen.


That sounds like bollox to me. If he was right then we'd all have sore muscles like you. I don't think the answer lies in saunas or drugs, but in working out why you, in particular, are so impacted.
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
That sounds like bollox to me. If he was right then we'd all have sore muscles like you. I don't think the answer lies in saunas or drugs, but in working out why you, in particular, are so impacted.


He knows his stuff - maybe it's just the way I'm wired?
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Or should that be weird Toofy Grin
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NHS views on DOMS here
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After skiing whilst muscles are still warmed up, do this.



Drink lots of water after and during skiing. Try not to drink too much alcohol. If you can't, drink more water between alcohol drinks.

In preparation for your holiday, do leg exercises to warm up muscles. Then stretch them as above.

Hold this pose for 20 seconds and push your leg straight whilst pulling as far over your head as you can. Do this 3x on each leg. Alternatively, get a friend to hold your foot in that position whilst you push back and straighten your knee.
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under a new name wrote:
@Snowy123, "not leaning" enough?

Shurely shome mishtake...


It's probably my poor English trying to put it into words and so it is not making sense? Hubby and son demonstrated to me what was the wrong and correct technique and it all made sense when we were on the mountain.
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martinm wrote:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
That sounds like bollox to me. If he was right then we'd all have sore muscles like you. I don't think the answer lies in saunas or drugs, but in working out why you, in particular, are so impacted.


He knows his stuff - maybe it's just the way I'm wired?


I don't think altitude would cause DOMS. Occasionally i stay in val thorens in the summer to work on the apartment and also to ride my bike. despite upping the cycling i don't get much muscle soreness, or at least anymore than at sea level. What i do notice, since wearing my birthday fitbit is how the pulse rate is affected by altitude. my resting heartbeat is elevated by about 8/9 bpm at altitude and it only starts creeping down after over a week of acclimitisation. i can see how altitude can make you breathless but i don't think it will make worse micro muscle tears that cause DOMS.
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It's not DOMS, but the poorer flushing effect due to the lower blood levels AIUI.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Sore Quads often mean your leaning too far back, which is one of my own problems with technique. Solution can be....get your nose over your toes when skiing.

As others say, prepare in the gym or on a bike before ski holiday, lots of water, stretching and get some lessons when away
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martinm wrote:
It's not DOMS, but the poorer flushing effect due to the lower blood levels AIUI.


Flushing what?? Most skiing is done way below Lactate Threshold. If altitude was the cause then as said above, everyone would get it. It sounds like DOMS to me.
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Single leg squats are the quickest way to get the skiing muscles in gear if you've left things a bit late
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http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/what-is-lactate-and-lactate-threshold
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Re: the flushing debate. The exercise above will aid flushing. Keep legs in this position for a further minute against a wall. Some people swear by ice baths, so a roll around naked in the snow should be good after skiing. Then immediately afterwards, a warm bath. This will also flush the legs.
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It's DOMS. If it was flushing something how come it wasn't present end of day one?
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It's starting to sound pythonesque
"We are all different"
"We are all individuals"
"Every man ( or woman) has a different solution"
Maybe a week at the ministry of silly walking before skiing is what we need. Very Happy Very Happy Confused
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Drink lots of water after you finish for the day, go for a walk around the town (light aerobic exercise will help to dispel the lactic acid build up) and spend five minutes doing some stretches. Also...warm up in the morning and after lunch with some stretches as well.
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@tangowaggon, + 1 can this thread get any dafter? @martinm, whatever your issue is you're clearly not going to find the answer here but snowHead s do love a bit of wild speculation. I cant really advise you without seeing you and doing a proper assessment, but the obvious things to try are to do ski specific exercise for many weeks prior to going skiing and to have a ski instructor look at you skiing. I wish yo well.
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Have had the sore calves myself & for me it was not bending or flexing my ankles enough which caused back of the ski boot to dig into the calve muscle
also not having the correct balance by not flexing ankles would also cause quad pain & calve pain .
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DJL wrote:
It's DOMS. If it was flushing something how come it wasn't present end of day one?


I think to distinguish between one medical term and a non medical term, you need to examine the cause. You also need to repeat the process to prove it is delayed, and not a reaction to something done on the second day which was not done on the first. For example, skiing may have been more sedate on the first day. The second day a more challenging route was taken, or a fall occurred.

If it is purely to do with skiing, and you do not experience this problem with any other exercise (for example jogging at lower altitude), then are you doing anything else at altitude like de-hydrating and not having sufficient oxygenation in your blood? Oxygen is lower at altitude, and generally oxygen saturation levels are lower. This causes problems with muscle repair. People with low oxygen saturation at sea level will find it a problem at altitude. Being a smoker or being overweight tends to be an indicator of low oxygen saturation (as well as obvious ones like a respiritory problem)

Most people do not ski enough to find out the cause, and so the best solution is to take it easy initially. Try taking it easy for two days instead of one.

I find my legs always feel better after skiing compared to jogging. This might be due to the way I ski, or that the exercise is less intense compared to jogging. The evening after jogging legs will be flush with blood, the morning after they might start to stiffen depending on the intensity of the run and the aftercare. On the day after that (with no stretching and sitting down a lot) legs will get stiffer. Stretching and hydration are the key, as well as avoiding sitting down too much. Walking around resort will help flush the blood and clear any lactic build up. (walking will not produce more lactic acid) A sauna will help too, by flushing the blood, but you will need to drink more water.

I can ski all day for 8 hours, however I would not like to jog all day.

Maybe try compression socks which go up to your knees, and try not to over-tighten your boots!

Try to focus on post exercise diet as well to aid muscle repair. Salmon covered in peanut butter (rich in omega 3 fatty oils, magnesium and reservatrol), with a glass of water with 1g sodiun bicarbonate, 1 tsp tumeric, and a spash of lemon juice in it might help. The sooner you get some protein the better. Try to avoid sugary fatty cakes and caffeine as well as alcohol in your afternoon post ski snack. (alcohol immediately after exercise is very bad for muscle repair)

www.wikihow.com/Reduce-Lactic-Acid-Build-up-in-Muscles
www.womenshealthmag.com/health/drinking-and-exercise


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sun 19-11-17 20:36; edited 1 time in total
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Bigtipper wrote:

I can ski all day for 8 hours,


Don't you spend more than half of that on lifts? I'm sure it takes longer to get up somewhere than ski down.
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maggi wrote:
Bigtipper wrote:

I can ski all day for 8 hours,


Don't you spend more than half of that on lifts? I'm sure it takes longer to get up somewhere than ski down.


...and a bit of lunch and a couple of coffees. wink

8 hours actually becomes 4.5. Very Happy
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This is a wonderful classic snowheads thread where an OP opens themselves up for responses from fellow snowheads, many of whom 😚 delight in good naturedly pointing out possible skiing and athletic deficiencies in their fellow snowheads.

The chance of the OP getting a response along the lines 'You"re ok all skiing Gods get sore on the third day if they're really nailling it' was always going to be vanishingly remote.
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Good discussion. I still believe the description is DOMS (or sore stiff legs after doing too much of an excercise you are not used to!). I don't believe it is Lactic Acid related as recreational skiing is (generally)not anaerobic and would not manifest on day 3.
Quite 'interesting' how long you actually excercise for when skiing e.g Last week we had a 'big' day skiing 38 miles downhil, 30 + lifts 40 000 feet elevation loss, started 9am finished 5pm, 30mins lunch generally no stops during a run: only actually skiing for 2hrs 38 mins!!
In addition according to Garmin Hr (which is not that accurate) 90% in excercise zones 1&2 none in 4or 5) i.e. at no time actually breathless/no lactic acid build up
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Ps This was day 5 , fully recovered from day 3 /4 DOMS!
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retsil wrote:
Last week we had a 'big' day skiing ...... only actually skiing for 2hrs 38 mins!!

I rest my case Laughing .
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FWIW I like to think of skiing as a lazy person's sport. I'm lucky enough to be able to ski at least 6 weeks a year, mainly off piste, I'm 57, with a hip resurfacing and have never considered myself to be fit. But, I don't get tired, I don't hurt and I don't take days off. IMHO part of one's aim in skiing (at least for those of us over 30) should be to reduce the effort that we make or more precisely to make our movements more efficient. When I first skied with the now Mrs SL I was impressed that I could ski the same off-piste crap that she skied, what I was not impressed with was that she did not break sweat and I did. The advice I got from the woman of few words was "I don't try too hard". It changed both the way I was skiing and my attitude to it.
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maggi wrote:
retsil wrote:
Last week we had a 'big' day skiing ...... only actually skiing for 2hrs 38 mins!!

I rest my case Laughing .


Maybe the 1.5hrs of stood in ski boots knocking back beers at après time should also be included? wink
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Kooky has been getting me to ski resorts top to bottom without trying too hard, just letting the skis do the work and controlling speed gently. It really does help. If I do the same banging in aggressive turns and pulling big forces then I usually need a break 2/3rds down as my thighs reach the point of no return.

I heard a story from a friend of mine's race training days where his trainer used to make him do 560 non stop slalom turns to build endurance Shocked Laughing
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Mollerski wrote:
A lot of that is lactic acid build up. Take a whack of Ibuprofen and push on, it'll go eventually.


So what is that soreness you get a day or two after working out? It’s called DOMS (delayed-onset muscle soreness,) and the belief that it’s caused by lactic acid building up in your muscles while you exercise is false. Dr. Parr explains that this isn’t the case:

A common belief is that lactic acid build-up in the muscle causes muscle soreness. This is based on the fact that during intense exercise like weight training the muscles make energy for contraction anaerobically (without oxygen), which leads to lactic acid production. This is in contrast to aerobic exercises like walking or jogging that produce energy using oxygen, with little lactic acid build-up. This belief that lactic acid causes DOMS has been shown to be false since any lactic acid that is produced during exercise is cleared shortly after you finish, long before muscle soreness begins.
Instead, that soreness is actually caused by tears in your muscle that occur as you exercise—especially if you’re just starting an exercise regimen: “It turns out that strenuous exercise leads to microscopic tears in the muscle, which leads to inflammation and soreness. This sounds bad, but the muscle damage is an important step in the muscle getting bigger and stronger. Your muscles are made up of protein filaments that shorten, leading to a contraction,” he continues. Essentially, as your body repairs those microscopic tears, you’re building new, healthy, and strong muscle tissue. This is also the reason why weight training encourages you to increase the resistance or heaviness of your weights as you get accustomed to one level—it’s only through this process that you actually get stronger and build more muscle.
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Don't you have to be working incredibly hard to get DOMS while skiing. I get tired after a week of hard skiing, but I've never had DOMS. Only ever had it to a significant extent three times: once after a stupid TRX session at the gym, and a couple of times when jet skiing on a choppy sea, both of which involved flexing legs under high loads for extended periods of time. On all three occasions the pain was so bad I was barely able to walk. Never had anything even close to that no matter how hard and fast I ski.
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@rob@rar, think it depends on the person. The first time I played 6 aside football I didn't do any stretching and hadn't exercised properly in years. I played on the Wednesday and on the Friday struggled to walk down the stairs. It was a frequent problem when I started playing. Likewise I've had issues after particularly intense cycle rides. However I do very little exercise and have a desk job, so the muscles that have DOMS very rarely get exerted.

Plus with skiing the technique will have an effect.
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Last year I rented a beach cruiser cycle while away in san Diego. I rode 15 miles very gently with the wife. Normally I was riding 200 plus miles a week at that time and racing every weekend. After the day on the beach cruiser I could hardly walk for 2 days. Purely a different position on the bike using slightly different muscles.
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@SnoodyMcFlude, that might be true, I'm no exercise physiologist that's for certain! I think DOMS is pronounced when the knee bends a lot (up to 90 degrees under high loads, e.g. in football lots of sudden stops and pushing off in a different direction). If you are carrying that much load on a deeply flexed leg I'd say there is a possibility the skier is way in the backseat, or being pushed out of balance by poor equipment setup by a massive amount.
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@rob@rar, While I agree that DOMS from skiing requires quite hard work it can be caused by tension. If your legs are not relaxed (e.g. your toes are trying to grip the bottom of your boots) then the muscles will be working in a very unusual way and it appears that DOMS is caused by using different muscles or muscles in different or unusual ways. There are accounts of intense massage leading to DOMS.

Interestingly it appears that the use of NSAIDs while reducing the pain does not fix the problem and may even inhibit the repair. At least one study in the states has shown that use of ibuprofen before intense exercise does not reduce the likelihood of DOMS.

Whilst there is much anecdotal evidence of cure/prevention by various mechanisms there is no documented, peer reviewed, medical evidence that there is any real 'cure' for DOMS (at least I can't find any). It appears that light exercise is the best thing but it still hurts Very Happy

Any doctors on here with any input?
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I think it varies a lot between individuals. Some people seem much more prone to DOMS than others. I seem to be one of the fortunate ones and have never suffered badly. I may have some stiffness the following day but that passes once I warm up.
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