 Poster: A snowHead
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Just back from an enjoyable week staying in budget accommodation in Samoens 1600. We stayed in Les Cimes, an apartment block at the top level in Samoens 1600. The apartment was super small, but was cheap and we really fancied ski in/out with no ski buses, so it was fine.
This was our third week skiing in the Grand Massif and the changes at Samoens 1600 are noticeable, the Club Med resort building shells are up and look like they will be ready for next winter. I think, since we were last there the lift from the Chariande Express departure level to the top level has been changed and is now a nice fast 6 pack detachable chair. The lift back to the GME level is the same 4 pack, I think. What has gone is the funny lift from the GME level to the top level and has been replaced with some cute little pink ski buses to ferry non skiers between levels.
We ate out at the Blueberry, nice food and friendly service - this also acts as a depot de pain for bread in the morning - you can also order croissants etc.
Considering the low amount of snowfall this year, we were surprised to find that virtually all the pistes we wanted to ski were open and in good condition in the morning, softening in the warmth of the afternoon.
However, for us, the Grand Massif has some massive issues that will need to be resolved before we are happy to return, and recent changes such as the removal of the old lifts from the marmottes run in Les Carroz have made things much more difficult.
The new Tete de Saix lift is excellent, however, removing those old lifts forces everyone down to the bottom of Les Marmottes and forces people of all abilities to tackle a steepish pitch which became difficult with large moguls developing in the afternoon. The volume of people down here was incredible and the variation in speed between them was at times scary. We saw lots of falls and lots of people not enjoying themselves, a theme that will be repeated later in this report. Everyone who skis into the Carroz sector has to use this piste to exit the area which is crazy.
Since our last visit, the l'arete run in the Morillon area has been improved and no longer feels like a run down a knife edge with drop offs to either side and too many people going too fast - this is actually now nice to ski down and doesn't just feel like a piste used to access another area.
I frequently wonder if the people "in charge" of the ski area go out and look at how the ski area performs in terms of giving enjoyment to people at all levels, at different times of the day, as opposed to how many miles of piste are open and how many lifts are running.
Take the dahu run back to Samoens 1600. I think it would be fair to say this is intended to be the easy, get you home run for beginners. People who have skied the area will know that there are two tricky points (three if you include the whole disaster area that is the Tete de Saix). The first is the short steep pitch with the run out past the lake. There doesn't appear to be a lot that could be done to fix this and is normally fine, but this year, hard conditions and moguls were appearing at going home time. The second tricky point is the steep pitch down to the area by the restaurant where the dahu and gouilies pistes meet. Lots of people not happy to be slipping and falling down here. This could be easily resolved by either re-profiling the piste past the little hut at the bottom of the Le Lac piste so that it isn't a short uphill before a wide and easy pitch down. Or the dahu could be simply re-signed to go down that way and leave out the steep pitch. The uphill part would probably be doable if everyone came down expecting to have to ski uphill at the end, rather than to turn on to a steeper area. What also doesn't help in this area is ESF closing off Verasse for two days for GS races.
The way that the Grand Massif is set up is that all traffic between the sectors has to go through the Tete de Saix which leads to large volumes of people using the pistes down towards Samoens, Les Carroz and Morillon. I heard someone call this area the M25 - over crowded, and plagued by people going too fast and too close. I feel lucky that we got through the week without being taken out in this area. The volume of people here is incredible, the left hand piste is narrow and quickly mogulled, the wider right hand piste is slightly easier but only accessible from certain lifts.
The Grand Massif needs to improve the inter sector links, forcing everyone through the Tete de Saix is crazy. A new lift from the area at the base of the Gron lift linking to the Biollaires area in Morillon would be great. A new lift from Morillon sector to somewhere on the Samoens sector is also required (is this planned for the Club Med development?)
In short, we wont be going back to the Grand Massif until the Tete de Saix area is made safer to ski and the inter sector links improved.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Welcome to snowHeads @onzc 
| onzc wrote: |
| In short, we wont be going back to the Grand Massif until the Tete de Saix area is made safer to ski and the inter sector links improved. |
Take some skiing lessons.
I take your points, it's not novice skiing, but it really isn't very difficult at all. But some lessons would be easier than using dynamite on the slopes, and would mean you enjoy skiing in other places too. The GM doesn't really connect that well, Lanche needs a new, faster chair, the drag over to Flaine is quite hard work. But the slopes are generally quiet (probably outside half term).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@onzc, I enjoyed reading your trip report.
The GM appears to get very crowded at half term so usually you would be better off going there at Easter...the snow depths are not currently looking good for Easter this time but hopefully it will snow in March as it has done the past few years
Les Molliets - I suspect the new lift has drawn more people to the Les Carroz sector..a pity. Be careful what you wish for in terms of new lifts elsewhere in the GM as presumably if there were better links to Morillon for eg more people would ski there too.
However the Marmottes piste near Molliets was also remodelled for last season and there is a gentler section to one side. I suspect the reason the piste ended up with large moguls was due to the volume of traffic at half term and the unusually mild temps. If you stay in Les Carroz you can ski it in the morning before it gets bashed up and avoid it later in the day - those staying in Flaine/Samoens would need to ski it in the afternoon to get back from Les Carroz. Whereas if you are staying in LC you can be skiing in Flaine, Morillon etc in the afternoon and do not need to use it to get back.
Tete des Saix - If you are staying in Samoens you will need to ski the busiest/exposed section at the top every time you want to go down there. If you are in LC or Morillon you can ski between the two places without going up there. To get to Flaine the route from the T de S is easy and you can avoid it on the way back by coming down Portet.
Therefore I'd suggest trying a different base next time you go to the GM.
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@onzc, In the plans is a replacement for lanche and a remodel of tete des saix (they are going to take the top off it) There is also a plan for using the space between samoens and morillon, with lifts and runs.
as suggested above, you were visiting paris half term, it will be very very busy, and the busy runs will always get mogulled.
Personally I don't want any more remodelling, the place is already "digger and earth mover" city in the summer. The remodel of l'arrete spoiled a rather nice descent on the right, and I would much rather they stopped removing trees and making pistes wider and wider into motorways........... but others want something different.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I am lucky that I don't have to be anywhere near the GM during half term. Having
been down to Molliets earlier in the year it was obvious that there were going to be problems at half term. I fear it is all the unwanted price of an unwanted Club Med development. It is nice to have new lifts but... Seems to me that the easier you make certain areas the more likely you will attract crowds and the situation gets worse. dangly bits to more beds and all that follows.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think "take some skiing lessons" could be the general advice given to everyone out there. However, me taking lessons doesn't really change other peoples behaviour or how crowded the runs are. Or help the children and adults I saw in tears or walking down the side of the piste in the areas I mentioned.
In terms of how busy things were and it being Paris holidays, when you have a teacher in the family and kids as well, you go when you can go. I didn't actually think the whole area was particularly busy for a half term week. It would be interesting to know the visitor numbers for last week, certainly the apartment block we were in was very quiet and we didn't have any really long lift queue waits and diverting onto the older lifts avoided the longish lines at the Chariande Express.
We have skied at Easter in the past and enjoyed it, but Easter in the GM this year looks tricky without lots more snowfall. They have done a remarkable job with the amount of snow that has fallen.
I think it is safe to say that improving lift access to an area will make that area busier (such as linking directly LC to M), but will it make the overall resort busier? I don't think so, it will just make it easier for the people to spread out, which in peak weeks is what is required. Some of the lift design decisions seem odd to me as well e.g. why does the Gron lift finish something like 10 metres too low to link LC and M. A really tiny remodel here would make the links so much better. The length of the queue for the Cretes drag, in the beginners area at the top of LC was unbelievable and not something that novices can have enjoyed. Again, I know we visited at peak time, but the people learning to ski there were not getting good value for the money spent on either lessons or their lift passes. Luckily we got to ski past down our favourite run - plein soleil into the timalets
I appreciate that the resort is a different place outside peak weeks - oh how I wish we could go then - but the resort is a resort and part of being a ski resort is making it as enjoyable as possible for as many people as possible, for as many weeks as possible. At the end of day, for the vast majority of people, it's a holiday and not a cheap one, the resort needs to able to "carry" the people it sells lift tickets to and for them to want to come back. This time, we enjoyed most of the skiing but didn't like how the structure of the resort creates difficulties, so next time we will try elsewhere. Which is great, as I have been pestering to go somewhere new 
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Our first time in GM last week (staying in Flaine). A busy week obviously, but we found it enjoyable, though I have a few (hopefully constructive) comments:
1) There were some massive pre-lunchtime queues at the Les Molliets, Tete de Saix and Vernant lifts. We made the mistake of skiing down to Les Carroz 1200 one morning and, having got caught up in the queues at the essential Retour Flaine lifts, had to send friends to pick up our child from ski school in Flaine as we weren't going to make it back in time. I find it curious as the queue at the equivalent link of Les Grands Vans on Flaine side never appeared too bad, one would think the loads would balance? Was it better without the new Tete de Saix chair?
2) Piste crossings: I've never seen such a collection of ropy piste carrefours. Where the new Samoens Marmotte piste crosses the old Dahu piste feels actively dangerous, Dahu is invisible to the uphill skier on Marmotte until the last moment, the crossing is very poorly marked, indeed my first time there I was only aware I had crossed a transverse piste rather than a fork was when looking back for others. The list could go on (eg at Flaine Tourmaline/Baudroie crossing Serpentine at Bissac, extremely flat green Epicea crossing steep/high-speed red Faust for starters)
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| onzc wrote: |
| . Or help the children and adults I saw in tears or walking down the side of the piste in the areas I mentioned. |
That steep bit used to be much steeper and narrower, they have re done the whole of that run, you often used to get people walking down it, before les molliets lift was made into a six man, the queues for the old lift went past the tunnel under the road.
| onzc wrote: |
| . why does the Gron lift finish something like 10 metres too low to link LC and M. A really tiny remodel here would make the links so much better. |
Gron is actually reasonably old now, it replaced 2 drags that were in the gron bowl, the area at the top of molliets used to be very small, and gron would not have been able to stop there.(and the huge expense of a much longer lift) Before they remodelled the top of molliets and then made the l'arete run much wider there was a run that you could walk up to from the top of gron (it was not very far at all) and ski into morillon, it joined l'arete. The remodelling cut it off. The tiny remodel as you call it would cost a fortune to do. Les carroz lift comany is separate from the rest of the GM.
| onzc wrote: |
| .The length of the queue for the Cretes drag, in the beginners area at the top of LC was unbelievable and not something that novices can have enjoyed. |
They have have spent vast amounts doing the moving carpet for beginners and the large flat area at the top of the gondola in les carroz, and re doing the green. Its peak season and queues are a result.
Regarding the new tete des saix lift well, the old l'arion lift was always breaking and the queues for gentiane were often very long, and everyone complained about them being so slow for years, hence the new lift and even more snowmaking down to molliets.
The new lift should have pressure taken of it when the fast lift out of morillon is done replacing lanche, so people don't come from morillon into les carroz to get to flaine
anyway I will put up with the busy runs and lift queues (and even with the queue its faster than gentianes was) as corbalanche is now so much better without gentianes over the top of it
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Zorrac, hello! Why is corbalanche better with out gentianes over the top of it? I'Ve done the corbalanche run once, years ago, and wouldn't do it again because it was a huge mogul field (after the alluring power at the top of course!) Has the actual piste been altered*?
FS
*please say yes!
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PS. @onzc,
Your summary is highly accurate and we call the M25 bit 'Wacky Races'!
Also I have seen many many people beaten by the last steep bit before the tunnel in Les Carroz to Mollietts - especially those tired and wobbly at the end if the day.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Freestyle, Hi, Its still lots of moguls, but no clanking lift over the top, so its peaceful, and no lift pylons.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hello- we would echo the above comments- stayed in Samoens at half term after a few years staying at half term in le Grand Bornand/ La Clusaz- we had a great time but were perplexed by the 'liaisons' and subsequent queues (Vernant etc). No matter how early we seemed to leave Samoens up to 1600 it was always a 30min queue- seemed to take 1 1/2 hours to get to Flaine- we were very impressed with the runs over there- they didn't seem to suffer the same pinch points- we always expect it to be busy at half term but it was the lack of alternatives to get back to Samoens that annihilated those key runs by the end of the day! Doubt whether we would be returning in subsequent years
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Agree. The lift system is over reliant on a few key lifts that produce massive queues and too many old, slow and antiquated lifts, not a single bubble to offer weather protection and uninterested lift attendants. Last Friday took a 30 minute wait to get on gondola out of samoens, another 25 to get up to tete des saix and a further 20 minute wait for flaine link, just unacceptable.Add to this pistes that get horribly busy and churned. Agree that flaine much better for both.
This was our first visit to Grand massif but we will go elsewhere in future years, probably Austria where fast modern lifts are the norm not the exception and living costs about half those in France ski resorts.
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You know it makes sense.
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Really interesting to read the report on Samoens during half term week. We were there for the same week for our 3rd visit. Fab weather and snow hel up really well. It was busy and the queues down on the GME and on the Lanches lift were frustrating. Overall in terms of lifts there have been some improvements but Id agree that overall lift sysytems are not as good as Austria ( we were at Skiwelt last year for the Hahnenkahm weekend at nearby Kitzbuhel).
However, Samoens itself is beautiful and we found some great restaurants eg Ligloo, Chalet Clair and M8 des Monts in Samoen itself.
In terms of the pistes then overall I would say skiing is good but 100% agree regarding the top of the Tete de Saix especially the short run at the top - Perce Neige.(?) It is absolutely carnage form 3 pm onwards! I dont agree with the other comments on the runs back to the Chariande but this particular run was awful. We have been skiing for a number of years and I would regard us as pretty decent. There was no concern at the slope itself but the sheer congestion. I was in hysterics most days as there we re people falling everywhere , luckily at low speed!
In fact it was so congested that at one point I saw 3 people fall in to each other and fail to reach the ground due to the congestion.
All in all a lovely spot but would have thought Club Med and the other development at 1600 will add mightily to the congestion. Im afraid we wont be back next year.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've been going to the grand massif several times a season, for 12 years. We loved the area enough to buy a chalet there which we had for 8 years, selling it a couple of years ago. Since selling we've still skied there, this year we rented an apartment in Samoens for 3 weeks in January.
The whole area has undoubtedly undergone much needed improvements to the lift system and pistes but it now attracts very many more visitors and even in low season, when we go, it seems far busier and the well know pinch points mentioned by the OP are a big problem, especially to less experienced or nervous skiers.
I know that there are plans to create new pistes, improve the tete de saix, replace lifts, put in new lifts but wonder when this will happen, Club Med is opening next season, I wonder how much will be done this summer? Certainly the development will make accessing the area from Samoens far less attractive, how will the chariande express cope with the increased demand? Marmottes and Dahu are very busy at the end of the day, not to mention perce neige, dangerously so in my opinion, and apparently there were queues of nearly an hour to download on the GME during half term week!
I think the OP was pretty spot on with their TR, perhaps for those who are experienced skiers, comfortable in any conditions or those who spend a lot of time off piste it doesn't seem to be such a problem but you only have to look about to see that for a lot of beginners or average holiday skiers it can be very off putting, not to mention scary!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@skimum, All good points I think, particularly regarding low season. Not sure how many days I have done so far this season but it is a good few. I reckon I have bypassed the GME on at least 85% of them.
I know that people will say that going up at Morrillon encounters its own issues if you are heading towards Flaine and getting back later in the day (hardly been to Flaine due to the amount of times the links have been closed) but the ability to ski to the bottom and a beer at the Bon Coin increasingly wins for me. Even when I have used the GME I have found myself at the Bon Coin and taking the short ride back to the GME car park
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