 Poster: A snowHead
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Just came back from a week's skiing and wanting to ask what people would consider normal in terms of thigh burn following a switch to longer skis. Prior to my new skis I never experienced thigh burn.
I now confidently ski reds hitting just over the 30mph mark at times, my weight is forwards and I'm making nice shaped turns.
I am skiing blacks without zigzagging to much and at times utilising short turns when mogulled.
What I have noticed this year is when skiing down the reds at a faster speed or on the blacks I am getting burn in the front of my thighs, when I stop the burn goes.
No thigh burn on the blues or greens.
My instructor this year said there was no major issues with my stance, I just needed to loosen up, bring my legs closer together, open my arms and start carving more.
He also highlighted he thinks I would benefit from a stiffer flex boot.
A couple of questions from me, is a little bit of thigh burn normal given my speed and slope steepness, is it just a case of i need to get to the gym to strengthen my legs or is this a sign something is off with my stance?
I'm wasn't planning on changing my boots yet but mentioning them in case they could be having an impact.
Height:5'1
Weight: 8'1
Age: 32
Ski: Line Pandora 94 157
Binding: Marker Squire 11
Boots: Rossignol AllTrack 80s
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I suspect you're not as forward in your stance as you think you are mate
Just hope you're never anywhere close to me or my family when you're doing 30mph on red slopes as I wouldn't be confident you're in full control
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Stance, Technique and Fitness are probably the big three.
As speeds get higher, so do the forces on the body. A stacked position - where the structure of your body all lines up, so your skeleton is bearing the brunt of the force, rather than your muscles - is the goal.
Tailored gym workouts are vital - lunges/jumping lunges/squats/jumping squats/sitting against the wall are all good. Aerobic endurance through rowing, cycling, walking/jogging uphill, also excellent.
A long high speed run, will see the build up of lactic acid and aching legs.....just look at the best racers in the world after a challenging high speed race. Many can hardly stand at the finish.....and they are as fit as a Butcher's dog.
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| peanuthead wrote: |
I suspect you're not as forward in your stance as you think you are mate
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This.
You're most likely over-using the thigh muscles to keep you upright rather than pulling the knee forward using your shin muscles. So the overall weight distribution might be OK, but levels of control and reactivity will not.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Leox5000, it's possible that the "new" bindings are at a different angle? but more likely you've changed your stance, too far back. Can be quite subtle. But have big effects.
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Lot's of comments about weight isn't as far forward as you think it is, and I agree.
I'd go further and say, without seeing your skiing at all, almost certainly you don't have enough flex at the ankle, so you're using your quads a lot.
While you might start off in a good position, i'd imagine as your put some turns together, the weight is shifting back, and you need to get forward again, drive the hips forward at the start of the turn, feel the shins pressing on the tongue of the boot.
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| peanuthead wrote: |
I suspect you're not as forward in your stance as you think you are mate
Just hope you're never anywhere close to me or my family when you're doing 30mph on red slopes as I wouldn't be confident you're in full control |
Nowhere close to any skiers when I hit 30mph only on empty runs, much slower when with the group as the last thing I would want to do is scare anyone else or hit them for that matter 
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @Leox5000, it's possible that the "new" bindings are at a different angle? but more likely you've changed your stance, too far back. Can be quite subtle. But have big effects. |
Digging into a problem could involve exactly this.
Your equipment - Boots/Bindings etc can certainly put you in the back seat, if they are unsuitable for your physiology and poorly set up.
More often than not, it is the fear of the speed that you are doing, that has one pulling away from the slope into the back seat. Keeping one's hands forward (in your vision) is very important.
If the skis are unstable at speed, it can also lead to an increased feeling of fear.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| swskier wrote: |
Lot's of comments about weight isn't as far forward as you think it is, and I agree.
I'd go further and say, without seeing your skiing at all, almost certainly you don't have enough flex at the ankle, so you're using your quads a lot.
While you might start off in a good position, i'd imagine as your put some turns together, the weight is shifting back, and you need to get forward again, drive the hips forward at the start of the turn, feel the shins pressing on the tongue of the boot. |
Will try to pay more attention to where im getting the forward flex from when I'm next at the snow dome.
I could believe maybe I'm driving my forward from the wrong joints especially on the steeper slopes, this is why I am in no rush to up the flex on my boots.
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| swskier wrote: |
Lot's of comments about weight isn't as far forward as you think it is, and I agree.
I'd go further and say, without seeing your skiing at all, almost certainly you don't have enough flex at the ankle, so you're using your quads a lot.
While you might start off in a good position, i'd imagine as your put some turns together, the weight is shifting back, and you need to get forward again, drive the hips forward at the start of the turn, feel the shins pressing on the tongue of the boot. |
Will try to pay more attention to where im getting the forward flex from when I'm next at the snow dome.
I could believe maybe I'm driving my forward from the wrong joints especially on the steeper slopes, this is why I am in no rush to up the flex on my boots.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Leox5000, I was once given a mantra (well, several actually, one of them was 'lunch!') by skimottaret of this parish, which echoes @swskier's comment, and this was 'ankles!' I've hardly ever suffered from thigh burn since adopting it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Hurtle, as i've started teaching more, and working through the qualifications, I now find myself watching people off the chairlifts, and ankles and lower leg is always the first thing I look at.
If your lower leg and boot are at roughly a 90 deg right angle, then that's the starting point for me.
I'd go as far to say that around 75% of those I looked at didn't have correct ankle flexion.
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@Leox5000,
Thigh burn normally means that you are working them hard trying to keep yourself from sitting down. Your knees and hands might be forward but where is your bum?
As @swskier says, maybe try concentrating on getting your hips further forward. "Sh*g not sh*t" to put it crudely (as my old boss used to say, not sure if skimottaret would  ).
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You know it makes sense.
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If your bum is sagging a bit back, so your weight isn't squarely over your feet, chances are those ankles aren't flexed enough. I know nothing about ski boots but would have thought stiffer flex boots might just exacerbate that tendency. To add to Hurtle's "ankles" mantra, I'd echo the advice of a Scottish instructor I had once who told me that to ski well you needed "to stand on your feet". That was worth the £80 cost of the private lesson. It was shared with my sister, who hugely enjoyed him telling me that I was "spry". We agreed that was a word only used of an old lady - though I wasn't more than 55 at the time. Look in a mirror - sideways on - make sure you're bending ankles and knees keeping your hips centred over your hips and your torso fairly upright. Feel the difference if your bum is just a few inches back - it's very subtle.
Until you've really nailed it, skiing "harder" slopes can be a bit pointless, as you just regress into bad habits (that's certainly what I find, if I'm at all apprehensive). Similarly, seeing higher speed as a goal isn't just potentially dangerous, it isn't helpful to your technique. There's another thread about how much more difficult it is to ski a steepish red run really slowly, with nice S-shaped turns.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| swskier wrote: |
@Hurtle, as i've started teaching more, and working through the qualifications, I now find myself watching people off the chairlifts, and ankles and lower leg is always the first thing I look at.
If your lower leg and boot are at roughly a 90 deg right angle, then that's the starting point for me.
I'd go as far to say that around 75% of those I looked at didn't have correct ankle flexion. |
I am a bit confused by this I have to say! I would want to see a MUCH smaller angle than 90 degrees between lower leg and boot!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| zikomo wrote: |
| swskier wrote: |
@Hurtle, as i've started teaching more, and working through the qualifications, I now find myself watching people off the chairlifts, and ankles and lower leg is always the first thing I look at.
If your lower leg and boot are at roughly a 90 deg right angle, then that's the starting point for me.
I'd go as far to say that around 75% of those I looked at didn't have correct ankle flexion. |
I am a bit confused by this I have to say! I would want to see a MUCH smaller angle than 90 degrees between lower leg and boot! |
I took it to mean that if there was a 90 deg angle, there was also a problem.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Quite a lot coming back about ankle flex which is good as I think that's my suspicion just from how I feel.
It wasn't as noticeable the first day or two but my calves were getting tight by day 3 and I think I've made up for that by flexing at knees rather than ankles.
Will look into what I can do to work on my ankle flex and build up my fitness prior to next year.
Thanks for the advice guys, didn't want to keep skiing with bad stance and just blame it on fitness levels but was hard to judge with it only showing on steeper slopes or at speed.
I will dial it back and spend some time making sure to correct my form.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
is a little bit of thigh burn normal given my speed and slope steepness, is it just a case of i need to get to the gym to strengthen my legs or is this a sign something is off with my stance?
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Stance. Lessons.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I know nothing about ski boots but would have thought stiffer flex boots might just exacerbate that tendency.
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Definitely. Frequently when we teach beginners who have, for whatever reason, got their own boots and brought them with them, they suffer from lack of ankle flex because the boots are too stiff.
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a Scottish instructor I had once who told me that to ski well you needed "to stand on your feet"
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I find myself saying that sort of thing to clients a lot. The number of times I see people ski down the hill, get to the bottom, and as they stop, they stand up and put their hips back in balance over their feet!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I used to get terrible thigh burn in a pair of Salomon Falcon boots that had a very pronounced forward lean. Changed to some much more upright boots and now can ski all day with thighs fresh as a daisy.
OP as the burn only hits on reds & blacks it does seem likely that you're in the back seat on steeper terrain
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| Leox5000 wrote: |
Quite a lot coming back about ankle flex which is good as I think that's my suspicion just from how I feel.
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The thing I found most helpful, was pulling your feet back underneath you, especially at the start of the turn (which pressurizes the tips, which helps pull you into the turn).
Another tip I heard, was to pull your feet upwards inside your boots (I think the muscle used is the Tibialis anterior), which helps with ankle flex.
As said above, moving forward and across at the start of the turn on Longer turns, stops you from being left behind. As the turn progresses, let your weight become centered again over the skis, or the tails will remain light and could skid out.
The advice that applies, very much depends on what level you are at.....and your instructor was best placed to judge that. You are getting good advice above, especially from the Instructors on here....of which I am not.
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@zikomo, yes, perhaps I didn't explain it properly, but @Old Fartbag picked up what I meant, that if it was 90 degrees, it was wrong, and i'd be looking to get more ankle flexion.
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And stop measuring your speed. It is meaningless, particularly if used to gauge your level of skill/ability. And probably not accurate to boot. Did you go at the same pace with your instructor and did he measure that? The answer will be no and that should tell you something.
The toughest part of instructor exams, for me, was being able to demonstrate defined movements precisely at low speed. And when my daughter was into racing she did a huge amount of slow speed exercises.
I suspect the problem in indeed one of stance and fore-aft balance. I think you are probably skiing steeper terrain at too fast a pace for your current skillset, so the fear kicks in and your core technique starts to suffer as you get further and further back. Concentrate on building your skills in less challenging terrain, you will find that much more rewarding. I know that there is a desire to ski the blacks to prove you have achieved a certain level, but in reality the goal is to simply not care what grade of slope you come across. But you will only achieve that by being sure to not over-terrain yourself when building technique.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I used to suffer from this and despite many helpful comments here: (one of my first posts on Snowheads!) https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2397192&highlight=#2397192 it persisted......
The following season I bought new boots, more upright than my old Lange race boots, which meant skiing in a more centred and upright stance and it's all but disappeared, as in when I get thigh burn now, whoever I'm skiing with is also suffering!
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Not having a stiff enough boot will also cause thigh burn.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| swskier wrote: |
| @zikomo, yes, perhaps I didn't explain it properly, but @Old Fartbag picked up what I meant, that if it was 90 degrees, it was wrong, and i'd be looking to get more ankle flexion. |
Apolgies, should have realised that s what you meant! Anyway, it all served to beat the ankle flex drum!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Don't obsess about speed
Don't obsess about piste colour
Don't ask random strangers on internet forums who may or may not ski as much as they make out
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You know it makes sense.
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@RedandWhiteFlachau, That is exactly what I'm talking about - as in "Skiing in a stacked position". It is a video I have linked to in the past - along with an excellent explanation from Deb Armstrong.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I used to suffer from thigh burn all the time and just assumed it was a lack of fitness.
After a visit to solutions for feet (who lost out on a sale as they had no suitable stock) it became apparent that my old boots had way too much flex and I was in effect having to hover in the ski position, with my thighs bearing the load.
New, stiffer boots have transformed my skiing. The thigh burn has vanished.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| KenX wrote: |
| ...I used to suffer from this and despite many helpful , as in when I get thigh burn now, whoever I'm skiing with is also suffering! |
Speak for yourself 
Seriously, the only time I might experience thigh burn is if I'm skiing the piste hard, but I'm wearing touring boots, so I presume that's to do with flex/ankle position etc but I'm not too techy gened up on stuff like that.
Though @lower's post above sort of confirms that.
All I know the difference when wearing alpine boots and piste sk is immense Vs touring boots n'skis.
I think fitness, and time on skis is the most important factor rather than position/stance.
Last week when @KenX, and I were at the SIGB testing skis we were joined by the Volkl Brand Manager who we were probably giving at least 25yrs too plus he was of Swedish heritage so I thought our work might be cut out, but he was the one out of breath complaining of leg burn and he was obviously a pretty nifty skier, but if you haven't got the legs you're going to get leg burn.
Obviously off-piste is a totally different environment and that really exposes who has the legs, especially somewhere like La Grave where I've seen good skiers take a time out to get their breath back, even though they have an untracked line below them as they're legs are burnt.
Beginning of the season had some leg burn and a Swede we were skiing with gave some really good advice, just concentrate on your breathing, as so many people when a little stressed almost hold their breath.
Witness athletes doing yoga for their first time, their faces are nigh on exploding beetroots as they fail to breath properly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Leox5000 wrote: |
... . Prior to my new skis I never experienced thigh burn.
I now confidently ski reds hitting just over the 30mph mark ... I am skiing blacks without zigzagging
No thigh burn on the blues or greens.
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I think you answered your own question there.
You are probably maintaining reasonable form on the easier runs, and it's probably falling apart on more difficult stuff. Maybe your new skis have given you the confidence to ski quicker on harder runs, but your technique isn't up to it, hence you're getting thigh burn. Get someone to video you, and you'll probably be able to see how your form looks. Compare that to how you're skiing easier slopes.
There's a reason good skiers practice on easy slopes. We all see novices "getting down" more difficult pitches... and I'm sure they never learn anything from that at all. Your instructor could well be right... in the end, you have to put the time in to get good at skiing. It takes quite a few days to get it sorted.
I'd look at it as a good thing - it's skiing telling you that your technique is off, which puts you on the path to fixing it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I could get thigh burn skiing badly, in the same boots (not stiff ones) in which I could ski the same slopes with no thigh burn at all, if I stand up on my feet, properly stacked. The only time I remember really bad thigh burn, even skiing easy slopes, I'd been ill with bronchitis and on antibiotics for several weeks and I was just not getting the oxygen to my legs. I had to stop a couple of times on an easy run I'd normally have done in one without thinking about it. I was just knackered. The OP might need new boots, or he might just need to get his technique right on easier slopes (and stop speed measuring).
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As you are 5'1" and probably have small feet I would conjecture that your delta angle on your bindings on your new skis could be causing some of this. Especially as your instructor didn't notice a major issue with stance or posture.
I am not familiar with the bindings you mention but take a boot and clip it into your skis, then measure accurately the distance from the base of your ski to the Bottom of your boot in two places. 1 being the bit that sits on the AFD Anti Friction Device, under the ball of your foot and 2. the lowest bit that sits near your heel... The difference in mm is typically called Delta... if 2 -1 is a positive number more than 4mm I would suggest having your bindings shimmed so that the figure is zero. SpyderJon can do this for you and you keep your existing boots and if it doesn't work out for you just remove the shims. I would bet that it will help you..
As you are confidently skiing red and black terrain, an 80 stiffness boot is probably too soft for you and a stiffer boot may help but I would see if adjusting delta angle helps in the first instance...
ps I am an instructor and have a fair amount of experience with equipment setup.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Leox5000, what snow dome do you ski at ? if Hemel perhaps we can have a look and help.. click on my signature link for a discount code...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thanks all for the advice, reviewing some limited videos it looks like my weight is pushed forwards but not from the ankles.
I've been trying various exercises with my boots to see how my weight balance is and whether it be too much forward lean or a flexation issue they seem to be fighting against me.
I've booked in with a boot fitter to have a look at my current fit so will see how I get on and what if any recommendations are made.
Next step after that will really be to dial in on that stance.
| skimottaret wrote: |
| @Leox5000, what snow dome do you ski at ? if Hemel perhaps we can have a look and help.. click on my signature link for a discount code... |
@skimottaret It is indeed hemel once I've had the boots looked at in the first instance I'll look to book something in.
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