 Poster: A snowHead
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If compulsory hi-viz for cyclists was justified, I'd be amazed if the same evidence didn't apply to making pedestrians wear it.
The attitudes of road users towards other road users (of whatever persuasion) is where the real and tangible step forwards are to be made in the improvement of road safety. This, in conjunction with fit for purpose infrastructure as demonstrated on the continent.
Nick
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@big_ben, +1
They should get outta my way, I know what I’m doing 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Not an expert however if you have seen someone who has fallen off their bike and smashed there head and then had to collect parts of their skull/brain, I’m sure you may consider it.
Just because you have been riding a bike since 1912 doesn’t mean you should get with it and invest in one.
Road traffic is getting heavier , drivers on the whole are ok but there are those who just hate cyclists.
Your choice if you wear a helmet but it’s got nothing to do with being cool.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Esdel wrote: |
| ... if you have seen someone who has fallen off their bike and smashed there head and then had to collect parts of their skull/brain, |
Now that vid should be put on YouTube!
| Esdel wrote: |
| ... drivers on the whole are ok but there are those who just hate cyclists.. |
It’s usually due to a bad experience in the past and lack of training/experience with driving around cyclists. Advanced test should be compulsory for everyone who wants to drive more than a 1.0l fiesta. If applied EU-wide, it would reduce congestion and pollution by a third overnight with their sh@t-4-brains drivers.
But there are some real tw@ts behind the wheel who have serious issues with anger management / enlarged ego / small p*nis (yes, almost always male).
Cops need to grow some and get these fkrs off the road or on a scooter/cycle ASAP! They’re a danger to everyone, but we have crumple zones n airbags to protect us!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just last week I came off my bike. No vehicles involved as slid off while exiting a canal towpath - probably due to a combination of the wet conditions and the fact the surface of the path had been recently relaid. Not going excessively fast.
Had some nasty scrapes to my legs as well as bruising to several different areas but nothing too major. Didn't land directly on my head but somehow managed to bruise the side of my face and put a dent in the cycle helmet.
So I'd personally never ride without a cycle helmet now. May or may not have saved my life but the concrete for sure wouldn't have done my head a lot of good.
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I hope that people are not being serious in saying pedestrians should also wear high-vis - they are not part of the traffic on the road like cyclists are and should be crossing roads in safe places. Of course there are some country roads with no pavements - carrying a light is then advisable !
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@Scrumpy, its just an extension of the argument " all cyclists should wear PPE" ( be it hi Viz or helmets). YOU might as well say " all road users should wear PPE" And the argument against it [for cycles] is as equally valid as your 'leave the pedestrians alone' point:
a) if you want to encourage cycling, don't make it seem like a dangerous sport - it isn't (witness numbers falling in Australia since compulsion, see this thread)
b) if you want to encourage cycling don't make it PITA to get on your bike to go to the shops.
Consideration tolerance and general respect for all other road users - be they pedestrians, cyclists or van drivers - will solve the problem.
However, I hate to say it and it runs counter to my 'it costs nothing to be polite and pleasant' mantra, recent political, fake news and social media events unfortunately are making humans generally far less tolerant, far more aggressive, far more selfish and far less desirable to be around. But would still rather that we addressed the cause - boorish behaviour or inattention (or lack of ability), rather than the symptoms.
I wear the helmet because I want to, but have no qualms about others who don't. However. Those suicidal eejits who cycle without lights of an evening, well, it's the Darwin effect for them.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
| @Layne, suicide cycle ride time? Down Whaddon hill in the snow, no hi vis, no lights after more than a few shandies. Must do that again. |
Happy days!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Scrumpy wrote: |
| I hope that people are not being serious in saying pedestrians should also wear high-vis - they are not part of the traffic on the road like cyclists are and should be crossing roads in safe places. Of course there are some country roads with no pavements - carrying a light is then advisable ! |
When I take the dog out for a walk at night I put a big yellow coat on which has fluorescent stripes all over it. I know that I probably look like the sun when a set of headlights hit me but I prefer that to looking like a corpse when the car hits me.
I am full on dayglo on the bike at night....I don't wear a helmet. Bicycle helmets are mostly air. They will only save your scone if you fall off in a very particular way. If you think you need a helmet then get a proper motorbike helmet which will actually take a big impact and save your grey cells.
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@Arctic Roll - as I said , pedestrians are not road users - they cross roads in a totally different, and hopefully aware, capacity and that is totally different from the way that road users / traffic need to interact with each other. TROLL !
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| nelly0168 wrote: |
I should say that I don't wear a helmet in town, don't see the point.
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My question would be... what's the point in not wearing one? What do you benefit by not wearing it?
It would seem to be that if a helmet doesn't impede you, then you may as well wear it and then if you have an accident and it does nothing you've lost nothing but if it does do something then you've gained everything.
I wear a helmet on my bike and on my skis because of that principle.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I cycled down the pub as usual this Sunday Lunchtime but this time I togged up with ski helmet and a high vis waistcoat.
I had to do it just to try it.
I looked and felt a total Tw@t, and I wont be doing it again.
I normally try and stay away from the cars as much as possible, that means riding on the pavement as much as possible, but being as considerate to the other users of the pavement, its their right of way.
I cant believe that the government can find time to have a review of this sort of thing.
What I did find scary was nearly everybody I've spoken to about this thinks that there should be legislation to enforce the wearing of helmets and Hi-vis.
To me cycling is my last snatch of freedom, but now I may lose that.
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I echo the "why is this in the piste section"
But, seeing as it is....
An A road walks into a bar. Sees a single track road chatting with the barman. Walks up and says "mine is a gin and tonic", bullying the single track into buying him a drink. Before the A road can take a sip, a dual carriage walks in and says "Oi, A road, get me a rum and coke!" The A road succumbs. Just as the dual carriage way raises his drink to his lips he feels a slap on his back from a motorway, who says "mine is a whisky". The dual carriage way buy the motorway a whisky, but before it can taste it, a thin sliver of red tarmac snatches it out of his hand and downs it. The single track road looks at the motorway in astonishment "why don't you sort him out". No chance, says the motorway... That guy is a cycle path.
I'll get my coat.
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You know it makes sense.
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| dp wrote: |
| My question would be... what's the point in not wearing one? What do you benefit by not wearing it? |
I am not saying you are wrong but...
1. I hate buying kit, I hate spending money unnecessarily, I hate shopping. It doesn't seem easy to buy a helmet. Lot's of different types, fit seems important, how warm or not, how much they muffle sound, etc.. seem important. I don't know, I may be making this sh*t up. But it just doesn't feel simple. And I feel, rightly or wrongly, that I have higher priorities.
2. I'm a bit old school/old romantic. I actually like wearing a woolly hat. I like bobble and tassles.
3. The evidence isn't totally compelling for me. Rightly, I am more worried about ava's. And indeed I am more worried about having a car accident on the drive down. I try really hard to avoid other skiers and hard stationary objects. I'm concerned a lid will subconsciously remove some of the need to self protect. But that is probably BS.
I would imagine that over time a lid will become more and more common as kids today grow up with them. So maybe we shouldn't worry too much.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| dp wrote: |
| nelly0168 wrote: |
I should say that I don't wear a helmet in town, don't see the point.
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My question would be... what's the point in not wearing one? What do you benefit by not wearing it?
It would seem to be that if a helmet doesn't impede you, then you may as well wear it and then if you have an accident and it does nothing you've lost nothing but if it does do something then you've gained everything.
I wear a helmet on my bike and on my skis because of that principle. |
Dearie me, where to start with that - how about passive aggressive ?
Taking your premise to its logical conclusion, we would all be walking in hi viz, cycling in full body armour and swimming with life preservers "because, well it just makes sense and.....it doesn't really put you out - you know it makes sense, eh?"
As the chap above points out, jumping on your bike to do a few chores or pop down the pub is a lovely freedom.
If it was legislated that we all required hi viz and a lid it would all feel a bit regimented, stilted even.
Also, cycling caps are so much more stylish than any plastic lid, and just about as effective 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As someone who wears a helmet for skiing, I believe it should be a matter of personal choice for all adults. For children I think it should be compulsory as their brains are more vulnerable according to a surgeon friend of mine so I bow to his knowledge.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Skiwi 55 wrote: |
I was knocked off my bike in Auckland a few weeks ago... whole side of my helmet broke off. Would have been my skull if I'd not been wearing it...
What has never been in question on either side is the importance of wearing a helmet. Not buckling the chin strap attracts the same disdain as not buckling the seat belt. And rightly so I'd say... it's no different to a seat belt, or a carseat for your infant. |
You are aware that helmets are designed to crack on impact, yes? And that your skull is significantly more robust than a cycling helmet?
That statement "my helmet broke, if it wasnt for this wee bit of plastic my head would have a hole in it" is simply uninformed and adds to the BS on either side of this debate.
As to your second statement above - you might need a lesson in the impact forces of car collisions versus the rating of bike helmets before stating that they are in any way comparable.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Rabbie wrote: |
| As someone who wears a helmet for skiing, I believe it should be a matter of personal choice for all adults. For children I think it should be compulsory as their brains are more vulnerable according to a surgeon friend of mine so I bow to his knowledge. |
Agreed on both counts, my son wears a bike (and ski) very helmet for that reason.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I see kids every day who I think all have parents who think precisely like that.
Once they're out of sight of those parents, the kids take the helmet off and hang it off their handlebar.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| nelly0168 wrote: |
| Rabbie wrote: |
| As someone who wears a helmet for skiing, I believe it should be a matter of personal choice for all adults. For children I think it should be compulsory as their brains are more vulnerable according to a surgeon friend of mine so I bow to his knowledge. |
Agreed on both counts, my son wears a bike (and ski) very helmet for that reason. |
I also agree. I've been a serious rider and skier for 30-plus years. If I toodling along on a commuter bike, where there are lanes or dedicated paths, I don't wear a helmet. But if I'm on my road bike, out for a training ride or even just a few miles to loosen my legs, helmet every time. My kids HAVE to wear ski and bike helmets. It's the law, but even if it wasn't they would. I also wear a climbing helmet.
As for skiing, I didn't wear a helmet until two years ago when my wife helpfully pointed out that I should set a good example for my kids. I'm still getting used to it but it's not a big deal either way.
Mandate cycling helmets for adults? I don't agree but it doesn't matter to me one bit if they are. My wife sustained a concussion this spring in a bad road bike crash (slippery conditions) but if she had not been wearing a helmet both of us think she could have died. So she wears a helmet no matter what.
(Above someone mentioned statistics for the Netherlands vs. Australia and helmet use. I think that's apples to oranges: Holland is board flat, EVERYONE rides, and there are endless cycle only lanes and paths. You would have to work pretty hard to have a serious cycling accident there. Whereas Australia: bad roads, psychotic cyclists, tired drivers, few bike lanes outside of the major cities.)
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It's old but I think it's still totally relevant to the discussion :
| Quote: |
Although the Netherlands is probably the safest country in the world for cycling, helmet wearing among Dutch cyclists is rare. It has been estimated that only about 0.5 percent of cyclists in the Netherlands are helmeted.
However, according to Dutch Government data (Rijkswaterstaat, 2008), 13.3 percent of cyclists admitted to hospital were wearing helmets when they were injured. Why does wearing a helmet appear to increase the risk of being injured so substantially?
The answer is probably related to another statistic. Of the injured cyclists wearing helmets, 50 percent were riding mountain bikes and 46 percent were riding racing bikes (Rijkswaterstaat, 2008). In other words, most helmeted cyclists in the Netherlands are engaged in a competitive activity, with very few making utility trips on the traditional style of Dutch bicycle.
Crashing is much more likely when racing than when making ordinary trips about town. Because they are moving at substantially higher speeds almost all the time, racing cyclists are more likely to be in collisions requiring hospital treatment. Similarly, mountain bike riders often undertake tricky manoeuvres on rough ground, and are therefore more prone to falls than is the case for commuters, shoppers and school children riding on ordinary streets.
Helmet wearers in the Netherlands are doing something different from normal everyday cyclists when they are wearing their helmets, which greatly increases their chances of being hospitalised. Helmet wearing is implicated in behaviour which is far more likely to end up in hospital than the cycling done when not wearing a helmet. However, in a country such as the Netherlands, where cycling is a commonplace everyday way of getting around, it is likely that most of the helmeted leisure time mountain and racing bike riders also ride utility bikes for their everyday journeys and they probably then ride unhelmeted. They choose to wear helmets only when they want to face a higher exposure to risk.
Although the desire to take heightened risk probably comes before the decision to wear a helmet, it is likely that the act of wearing a helmet reinforces the acceptability of taking risks, leading to the taking of even greater risks. In professional sport, people may use helmets, their skill in bike handling and the protection from immediately available specialist medical care in order to facilitate the highest levels of risk taking.
Sports cyclists wear helmets in an attempt to limit the consequences of the risks they want to take. However, the much greater representation of these cyclists in the hospital statistics suggests that their attempts to limit risks are inadequate for the risks involved. Indeed, putting their faith in 'technical fixes' such as cycle helmets may encourage many people to take greater risks than they should. In cycle sport internationally, the number of deaths in races has increased markedly since helmet use became mandatory |
At the very least this suggests making helmets compulsory for cyclists would be overkill. You could make it compulsory for certain higher risk activities. But defining and policing that would be tricky.
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^^Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make at the end of my post. It's not just riding a bike, it's how, where and with what purpose. The UCI mandates helmets for racing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Walking Helmets :
I m very surprised that the tremendous BMJ article on Walking Helmets hasn't been mentioned yet . Highly entertaining and should make you question whatever your entrenched position is!
"The first case-control study of about 2000 injuries to pedestrians in Britain (180 of whom had worn helmets) concluded that the risk of serious head injury was reduced by 75% when a good walking helmet was worn. Safety campaigners used the slogan “walkers need helmets” to encourage parents to send their children to school in helmets. Several high profile accidents focused public attention on the dangers of walking. A well known television presenter was severely head injured by a police van answering an emergency call. Doctors concluded that her injuries would have been “substantially reduced” had she worn a helmet."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119262/
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| Quote: |
At the very least this suggests making helmets compulsory for cyclists would be overkill. You could make it compulsory for certain higher risk activities. But defining and policing that would be tricky.
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Exactly - I wear a cycling helmet for 95% of my miles but I do a few short journeys around town wearing a suit when I don't have my cycling gear with me. Then I don't wear helmet/glasses/gloves/hi viz/cycling shoes. It does alter the way I cycle a bit - corner a bit more cautiously, ride a bit slower (not least because I don't want to get sweaty and because I don't have as good connection with the pedals).
Very few people wear helmets on Boris bikes for similar reasons - they are convenient, ad hoc for short journeys and people don't want to carry a helmet round in case they want to use one.
Mostly though I value the limited extra safety my helmet gives me. In 12 years of cycling to work most days I have had two accidents in which my (late) helmets did their job. Both involved losing the front wheel on diesel/oil patches with a resulting crunching fall onto the tarmac with pretty heavy blows to my helmet. Neither involved another vehicle. The helmets behaved as they are meant to - crushed/split to absorb the impact. Neither would probably have happened if I'd been pootling rather than cycling briskly at about 20mph. In a collision with another vehicle I very much doubt my helmet would be of much use.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| nelly0168 wrote: |
| martinm wrote: |
| Gordyjh wrote: |
| I like it when they wear black, no helmet and no lights at night on unlit roads. |
Yep, that's what annoys me. 'I wear a helmet so will be OK'. And you ride like a tw@t and wear black. |
I love this thread already
There are a lot of students in my area who cycle like ninjas of an evening.
However, playing devils advocate - Whats your feelings on pedestrians on unlit roads wearing black?
Given that four times as many pedestrians are killed by car drivers than cyclists, should they also wear dayglo?
Final question, if you ride "like a lady's front bottom" you may endanger yourself, agreed. Whats your thoughts on the (infinitely larger number of) car drivers who drive like ladies' front bottoms, and can potentially kill or maim pedestrians/cyclists? |
Happen to live near the meadows? My other half and I have nearly been mown down a few times by the students who pay no attention to anything thinking there on some cycle path in the netherlands, its even nicer when the come flying down a one way street the wrong way at you...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I looked and felt a total Tw@t, and I wont be doing it again.
As a driver, the total Tw@ts are the cyclists wearing dark clothes and / or no lights, I'm always grateful and respectful of cyclist that protect me from the horror of killing someone by making themselves more visible.
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| lordf wrote: |
| nelly0168 wrote: |
| martinm wrote: |
| Gordyjh wrote: |
| I like it when they wear black, no helmet and no lights at night on unlit roads. |
Yep, that's what annoys me. 'I wear a helmet so will be OK'. And you ride like a tw@t and wear black. |
I love this thread already
There are a lot of students in my area who cycle like ninjas of an evening.
However, playing devils advocate - Whats your feelings on pedestrians on unlit roads wearing black?
Given that four times as many pedestrians are killed by car drivers than cyclists, should they also wear dayglo?
Final question, if you ride "like a lady's front bottom" you may endanger yourself, agreed. Whats your thoughts on the (infinitely larger number of) car drivers who drive like ladies' front bottoms, and can potentially kill or maim pedestrians/cyclists? |
Happen to live near the meadows? My other half and I have nearly been mown down a few times by the students who pay no attention to anything thinking there on some cycle path in the netherlands, its even nicer when the come flying down a one way street the wrong way at you... |
@lordf Close - just off Grange Road - hi 
Your experience is not unusual - its great that there are so many bikes in this area, and so many are used for "normal journeys" - shops / uni / pub etc - but I am amazed that there are not more ninjas hospitalised each year !
Just about the time the clocks change, the Edinburgh police (cycle unit) set up in Middle Meadow Walk and hand out free lights to whoever needs them.
They also remind people of the law regarding lights, but it doesnt seem to change much year on year.
Being kind, it may be that most of the "offenders" are first years who make mistakes, and then learn - only to be replaced by another batch of first years ad infinitum.
Driving home last night I was also struck by the number cycling one handed with the other in their pocket (because it was so cold) - no gloves 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Don’t people walk over there? Lazy !
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Poster: A snowHead
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@ALQ, Walking is impact. Cycling is far better for non impacting flexibility & tone.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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..
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 28-11-17 16:15; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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..
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 28-11-17 16:15; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@ALQ, What are all those white & yellow lines on your very poorly paved roads & rusty dirty looking metal cages on the side of the roads?
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@ALQ, We would not cycle on streets like that, that is madness.
Our cycle paths are seperated from the roads and safe
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@stanton, You people should care more about the environment and learn to walk. It will strengthen your jelly skeletons and stop cheating/diving at football...weak lazy suicidal!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stanton wrote: |
@ALQ, We would not cycle on streets like that, that is madness.
Our cycle paths are seperated from the roads and safe |
Because you have jelly skeletons. you are like those weak lazy piste-only skiers. Stop the brutal grooming.
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| ALQ wrote: |
| stanton wrote: |
@ALQ, We would not cycle on streets like that, that is madness.
Our cycle paths are seperated from the roads and safe |
Because you have jelly skeletons. you are like those weak lazy piste-only skiers. Stop the brutal grooming. |
It isn't the roads they are grooming...or the pistes for that matter
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FAQ
). What has never been in question on either side is the importance of wearing a helmet. Not buckling the chin strap attracts the same disdain as not buckling the seat belt. And rightly so I'd say... it's no different to a seat belt, or a carseat for your infant. Protecting the most vulnerable contents of your vehicle. Riding a bike in today's highly congested traffic whether NZ Aus Netherlands or UK is nothing like it used to be in the good old days when the only traffic you'd meet peddling home from the pub might have 4 legs rather than wheels (and depending on how many schooners you'd sunk, and what part of Aus you're in... 
)
