 Poster: A snowHead
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| is there no Dynafit response to the Shift in the offing? |
Not a direct response to the Shift, but I saw a photo of a Dynafit gadget that attaches to a ski with an alpine binding. It lays flat when not in use, and pops up to attach to the Dynafit toe fittings on a boot. I think the idea is it enables some alpine bindings to work like a Shift.
Edit https://ibb.co/jfdn4H
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I will be renting shifts for next season and maybe buy 2nd hand or v2, if v2 is coming. I recommend blister podcast with salomon shift designer/engineer if you haven't already listened.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@kedsky, Do you have a link ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Oceanic wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| is there no Dynafit response to the Shift in the offing? |
Not a direct response to the Shift, but I saw a photo of a Dynafit gadget that attaches to a ski with an alpine binding. It lays flat when not in use, and pops up to attach to the Dynafit toe fittings on a boot. I think the idea is it enables some alpine bindings to work like a Shift.
Edit https://ibb.co/jfdn4H |
presumably using elastic to stow the brakes?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Distinctions need to be made depending on the percentage of up to down. I love my Beasts and heavy skis for charging in the resort and doing shorter day tours ~1200m climbing. But I am going to head towards something smaller and lighter than my radical 2s for proper touring and my steeper skiing ambitions (where you may lock the toes)- maybe the Salomon MTN or possibly a heavier race binding.
IME its the skier rather than the binding that dictates how someone skis. A guide I have skied with a lot recently uses only an ATK race model and I'm certain he charges harder than the majority of snowheads.
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@kedsky, ta
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The shift will be a game changer; little doubt about that (unless it falls to bits). However, it's still a very different beast (ahem) to the likes of the lighter Dynafit/MTN/ATK offerings. I certainly won't be screwing a pair onto my superguides...but I would for a pair of freeride skis.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
The shift will be a game changer; little doubt about that (unless it falls to bits)
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For the last 10 years or so every year or two a new binding or boot comes out that will be a "game changer" and be as good as alpine boots / bindings... It comes out to great fan fair, they start breaking and then a mark II comes out, or, you need a special adapter or have shave something down or get a third party plate, or use a special grease, etc. ... Still waiting... 
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@skimottaret, I recall you had some shims made up for one of your setups - did they made a difference ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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oh yeah forgot to add that, The delta on a pair of touting bindings I had was so huge I needed to put a stupid amount of shimming under the toes so I could actually ski on em but then the crampons didnt work so they got sold and replaced at great cost..
Remember how expensive the Beasts were when they came out as the "ultimate" crossover bindings that all the free riders hucked cliffs with.. now discontinued... It all feels that the products in this sector are badly engineered, not fully tested and sold to the enthusiasts market who will put up with such rubbish design..
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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shift was tested extensively last year or so by guides, pro athletes and mountain rescue. I want to believe that the binding is really awesome. And yes, there will be v2, v3, etc as they have to make money. It will be our quiver in and out, unless we race.
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| kedsky wrote: |
| shift was tested extensively last year or so by guides, pro athletes and mountain rescue. I want to believe that the binding is really awesome. And yes, there will be v2, v3, etc as they have to make money. It will be our quiver in and out, unless we race. |
Don't you think that Dynafit etc test their bindings extensively. Some of them went with pro skiers to 8000 meter Himalayan peaks during testing and still failed. Actually Guides, Pro Skiers and Mountain Rescue are the very last people you want binding testing gear as they look after it. You want it in hire shops, send a few to the brutes on TGR etc. I would be an example of a poor tester, I ski on some 20+ year old Dynafit bindings without any complaints.
Salomon already had a disaster with their first tech compatible boot the Quest which was career ending for one skier. The Shift may be a perfectly well made gadget but always best to let some other guinea pigs test this stuff first.
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You know it makes sense.
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Weather not too pleasant here so here's my two cents.
Like all aspects of mountain sports there are tribes and sub tribes / cultures within each given category and the same is equally true of the touring market.
I clock some amazing sights on the mountains around me.
I agree with@skimottaret, (amazing I know  ), @JackSkier, and @Sharkymark
As I've typed before on this forum I have never really come across experienced tourers using the likes of Beasts / Kingpins.
Now what do I mean by "experienced" I'm talking about the many groups of Italians and Frenchies that come to this part of the world each weekend (clubs from Turin Grenoble Lyon) which is blessed with good touring terrain we all chat at the many and varied departure points which might serve five or six different routes and then again afterwards.
Over the years I have seen wider skis being used more but I would still say the average is circa 95mm, and as for bindings it's still Dynafiddles and obviously Plum.
I have not been out with my local CAF (Club Alpine Francais) this season, though have bumped into one of the "leaders" a few times and he positively looked down his nose at the setup I was on almost ridiculing my 108 skis inferring it was not really skiing!
The people I do see using the likes of beasts and kingpins tend to be more obviously on their one week holiday and just maybe have not done too much touring, they are usually with a guide, nearly always wearing an ABS even in spring (I wear one in winter), quite often wearing helmets on the up (along with goggles) and remind me of how I once was many years ago, and to stir things up on here this is the sub-tribe of the touring market where I can see the Shift selling well
I've been using various versions of Dynafits over the years, seeing them go from robust metal to incorporating more plastic in their designs.
I've seen a Dynfait toe pin sheer and the look on Fritz Barthels face when he was shown the evidence on a mountain in Lyngen and we stayed in touch after that, with me ski touring with him and his Dad on one occasion down near here with him explaining how the whole Tech market was going to explode as his patent ran out, and one of my prized coffee table books is Thirty Years of Dynafit Tech Bindings he sent me, though when I did my ACL seven years ago I did blame my Dynafit binding at the time for not releasing, though tests have shown how the heel release can be a positive.
After my ACL I then went with second gen Vipecs and really got on well with those and still use them regularly and so does my OH, though I know one guide who still recounts the story of having to take an ice axe to them to get them to release!
This year when I was wanting a more downhill powder orientated setup I went for the new Tectons on 108 Atris Black Crows and I just love that setup and have clocked up so much vertical on them this season, the binding is rock solid, though we now know that there can be a few issues on the up should you fall over wearing certain boots.
On my SuperGuide 88's (for all out Spring touring) and my 115 Coombacks I have ST Radicals as I still like to protect my knees as much as possible.
I'm not too much of a weight weenie shaving off grams here and there, by not using breaks etc as I don't really have any issues on the up keeping up as I'm fortunate enough to be a tad fitter than most probably as I do so much along with the bike the rest of the year.
Right looks like a break in the weather and maybe a quick blast up the Granon, though on the road bike to the snowline which when I hiked up yesterday was around 2,100m.
And yesterday when I was up there I witnessed the way to get to the top of a mountain in a most impressive way - see Serre Che thread!
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 1-05-18 10:22; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@DAVIDOF I hope ALL binding manufacturers do proper testing. I am a fanboi of quality gear not a company.
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Poster: A snowHead
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For touring, bindings with no brake and a u spring controlled release are a well proven solution.
For freeriding, some skiers use an alpine binding, with an additional Dynafit toe mounted well forward on the ski. Problem with this is that the ski is getting pretty thin there, which makes mounting tricky.
Maybe a ski manufacturer could design a ski with a second reinforced binding area at the front, for an additional Dynafit toe piece? My guess is that this wouldn't affect the flex pattern too much in a ski with metal in it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| Like all aspects of mountain sports there are tribes and sub tribes / cultures within each given category and the same is equally true of the touring market. |
Of course there's no telling which tribe is right (maybe all of them) but all like to proselytize their own "religion" on others it seems (see the fat ski / thin ski thread). The worst offenders seem to be the most recent converts too.
Just got back from skiing in Alpe d'Huez then Val d'Isere. Mainly on piste in Val d'Isere as I was with the nipper and the off piste was either refrozen corrugated sheeting or knee deep slush, except yesterday when there was around 5-10cm of fresh snow above 2000 meters. I was amazed by the number of people using pin bindings on piste... and wearing airbags. As if their airbag would help them if they got steam rollered by a 1000 tons of spring snow. I remember back in the day it was de-rigeur to walk around a town like Chamonix with a harness and a pair of ice axes even if you were just fetching your morning baguette. Tech bindings seem to be the new ice-axes. They signal that you are part of the "serious, hard core, sem-I-pro crew", even if you never actually tour with them.
One thing the nipper noticed in Val d' (where, it has to be said, the general standard of skiing was way higher than alpe d'Huez) was that skiing skills seemed to be inversely proportional to the surface area of skis used. I wondered if it was really the case, or whether the larger skis were having trouble with the mounds of afternoon slush or the refrozen morning ice? A large ski would certainly have been a good idea off piste, even if going off piste in the conditions was not a good idea in itself.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Loving the judging of people’s kit choices based on seeing them for a few seconds on piste/in a lift line/walking around the village
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The Shift - and the Beast - are not tech binding killers. If you're doing actual touring, where the purpose is to gain height and summits as much as ski down, something like the Rad 2.0, Kingpin, Tecton or Plum will clearly be the better and more efficient choice.
If you're touring to ski steeps and mega-gnar, the same applies; skiing slowly and precisely, possibly with locked toes, there's little advantage to a normal binding.
What the Shift will do (if it works) and what the Beast failed to do (IMO!) is kill the frame touring binding. I hope it will be one binding to do it all; a proper jack of all trades, but a skiing binding that you can tour with rather than a touring binding you can ski with. It *should* be safer and more reliable doing things like powder tree skiing (where you might want vertical toe release if you stuff your tips under a buried log etc), dampening vibrations on hardpack, crud and sastrugi, and there should be less adjustment time (like dulcarama I reckon I adjust to touring bindings within and hour or two - the problem is if I've been skiing alpine bindings all week one touring descent often isn't enough time to fully get used to them again). And they will be way more efficient skinning 1000m+ vert than a frame binding.
So yes, they will suit people looking for a 'one binding quiver' better than dedicated hardcore tourers, whether that's locals or travelling skiers who need one set up to cover anything. I'm not sure why anyone would look down on that though  . Chasing summits on lightweight kit and wiggling your hips on the way down isn't inherently more admirable or hardcore than lugging heavier kit uphill to ski the steeper slope/couloir/cliff 300m vert below the summit at 5x the speed - which equally isn't necessarily gnarlier or more impressive, either. Just different styles and different ways of enjoying the mountain.
FWIW I know plenty of people doing BIG days around here on Kingpins and Beast 14s too. But then Leo is twice as fast as me uphill even when I'm on Speed Turns and he's on 193 Corvus's with Dukes. Guess some guides would frown on that, but frankly there are plenty of guides out there who aren't anything special on skis anyway. They probably also watched La Liste and frowned disapprovingly at Heitz climbing/skiing 4000ers with 115mm skis and p18s
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Arno +1
@Clarky999 +1
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@clarky999, spot on
I risk the ire of weathercam and take 1 pair of beasts and 2 pairs of quiverkillered skis to La Grave on my annual trip. It doesn’t cover all bases perfectly but it covers most bases adequately, given the type of skiing we usually end up doing. For pure touring I have a much lighter setup, but that would be NOT FUN around LG if it hadn’t snowed in a bit
The Shift may fit the niche my beasts currently occupy better but I just have this sneaking suspicion that there is a bit too much going on in the toe pieces. This is also the case for beast16s to be fair - I’m hoping for (but not necessarily expecting) a few more weeks out of mine before they really go wrong
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Hehe slowly getting some more varied opinions in this thread, i like it.
Firstly, yes Dynafit gear is tested by some hardcore guys putting in insane amounts of vert along with many life-cycle and catastrophic failure tests, and I'm sure Salomon have also done a load of testing, the issue is, for lack of a better term "the idiot factor" its almost impossible to prepare for non guides and pros who will stamp on them, dig edges into them and leave them in the car all winter then complain that they break when they ski into a rock.
Making a binding that works is easy, making one that has a bunch of features, is cheap enough, lightweight, good looking, easy to use and works across the globe in the most extreme conditions in the world, used by pros and novices, skinny athletes and fat holiday makers, treated like junk and then expected to transfer 4000N of force in all directions through 2 x 4mm wide pins while acting as a safety device that is expected to release at an exact force to prevent injury but stay on to protect people from certain death, is a completely different thing.
just saying
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
And I agree with @davidof, about people with all the gear and no idea, for @davidof especially must come as a bit of a shock as he's more used to skiing the great little stations around Grenoble where you just do not see people like that. |
Well I'm not sure if they have no idea - although the people heading down the Grand Sablat last week at 3pm (it was 15C on the Pic Blanc) maybe fall into that category but I know it is a figure of speech. It is certainly seems to be a fashion and tribe thing though, as you said. So much the better, if manufacturers relied on people like me they'd pretty soon go bankrupt and the economy would crash.
Around Grenoble, in the small stations, a lot of people are still on skinny skis from the 1980s but even here there is a huge difference between say Chamrousse (beginners, people who ski a couple of days per season as a social thing on ancient gear they've borrowed) and les 7 Laux (student poseur freeride crew with the latest kit) and le Collet d'Allevard (families, hand me down skis for the kids but probably from this century, at least), to name three neighbouring areas.
As for Dynafit gear, I remember chatting with Basti Haag who was bemoaning the fact that Dynafit was getting too marketing driven with form winning out over function but that was in part in response to the craze for freeride touring bindings like the Dukes, Natchos (sic), Fritchis and suchlike. The range seems to have returned to some sanity since then.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 1-05-18 13:19; edited 1 time in total
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@dulcamara, so a little more on the story for you as to how I met Fritz.
Must have been a good ten years ago and think it was my second or third trip to Lyngen before it was becoming popular, doing the staying on the boat thing.
Day one and zero mins in to the trip, our guide drops his skis down and goes to step in and curses as the pin sheers off. We are on an island having sailed there overnight from Tromso and guide has no other skis etc, luckily there was another boat moored up with a group and he ended up borrowing a set of telemark skis.
Day three and it was sheeting down with rain and we were moored up at Lynenstedtt with a few other boats and groups, and a few were from manufacturers (Norona) doing photo shoots and testing gear etc we were waiting the rain to pass and went out at 16:00 as you can up there as does not get dark till 23:00
As we were climbing up this group was coming down which was pretty rare given the scarcity of people and the terrain options.
They skied down towards us to say hello as you do and I noticed one of the group was wearing a few Dynafit logos etc so I asked "are you anything to do with Dynafit" to which his friends laughed and said "he is Mr Dynafit" and he explained who is was, with that Per showed him the sheered pin and Fritz took it out of his hand and put it straight into his pocket
Next time I met him was a year later and he gave me a whole goodie bag of spares which I gave to my local shop here.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Weathercam, @Weathercam, Haha yeah, Fritz is a great guy, no question at all! He absolutely lives bindings, pretty much every idea you see on the market he has tried before in his basement but just not patented it. I learn a lot chatting to him. He is now working hard on the Hoji boot project which is great to have!
Pins/wings shearing is everyone's nightmare, especially as now they are press fits and not replaceable, fortunately it is pretty rare these days and the hardening processes has been a long iterative evolution. Obviously with thousands produced every year and micrometer tolerances, failures do happen. Wish i could say there is a quick solution but its just something that we work on improving all the time. Currently its all about improving the inserts though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
Over the years I have seen wider skis being used more but I would still say the average is circa 95mm, and as for bindings it's still Dynafiddles and obviously Plum.
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Fitting with the trend I saw outside the huts on the Imperial Haute route last week. I'd say the average ski was even narrower- the most popular ski by far was the BC Orb Freebird (which I have a pair of and like a lot)- and most bindings were Plums or brakeless dynafits, maybe one pair of Kingpins all week.
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OK, I know my limits.
I am that holiday skier who can only afford (financially and in time) a couple of weeks a season; perhaps three if I've been really good.
On one of those trips I'll probably be on piste with the family 90% of the time, but might be falling over in the park a tiny bit or doing bumps with my lad.
I've done very little touring, and none of my ski mates are really into it - I'm working on them and last trip they were all saying they needed lighter setups. If I do get them to go uphill; it's to get to better snow, not for the joy of walking.
Luggage allowances dictates that a couple of pairs of skis are OK, but that multiple boot/binding types are not.
For me the Beast 14 is a good compromise; lighter than frame bindings on the up and (I'm told) safer than "traditional" tech bindings on the way down.
A little birdy told me that if Dynafit actually tried to do some marketing, that the Beast would have sold much better and still be in production.
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You know it makes sense.
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This is a bit shameless, but I am totally in love with my Beast 98 and Superlite 2.0 combo! Can not recommend them enough,
Skis, I will happily say that until the last range of freeride skis came out (metorite and Chugach) I wouldnt touch dynafit noodles. But the Beast 98s have a good long radius, camber under foot, tip and tail rocker and pretty stiff for a 184 long 1610g ski.
Bindings, Superlite 2.0 with a leash are my favourite bindings as I said earlier, weigh 175 grams, and i've put themthrough GS turns on ice, hacked down coral reef, bounced through slush and blasted bottomless powder, never locked and they've always held (i have a fairly clean technique though, a big guy skiing with only power may have a different exprience i dont know). Heel tower is bolted straight to the ski so is robust the plastic housing doesn't break though obviously it doesn't look sexy. 7mm delta (thats flatter than the kingpin). Toe piece is lightweight aluminium so of course its possible to break it, but i have never managed and we get VERY few returns.
I think these light bindings are the next step, it took a long time for alpine skiers and frame enthusiasts to trust pins, now you cant get them off them, maybe in a few more years people will start trusting light gear too.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Arno,
| Quote: |
I risk the ire of weathercam and take 1 pair of beasts and 2 pairs of quiverkillered skis to La Grave on my annual trip. It doesn’t cover all bases perfectly but it covers most bases adequately, given the type of skiing we usually end up doing.
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Could of sworn that in the past you made a very persuasive argument that the right compromise was skis quiver-killered for both (Say) Marker Tour and a lightweight pin and that Beasts were neither one thing or another plus unreasonably costly!
I suppose given how cheap you could get beasts as they went out of production they started to get very competitive with frame bindings?
I have beast 14 which work well on big skis for day tours/sidecountry/general off piste when you might want to skin out of conditions get iffy but I would not recommend for big hut to hut trips (they work but are far from optimal). They also ski like an alpine binding on piste if that matters.
Overall though they are a freeride binding you can skin on more than a touring binding.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dulcamara wrote: |
| I am totally in love with my Beast 98 and Superlite 2.0 combo! |
Now you are talking my language! When you started lusting after a pair of Shifts I got a bit concerned about the direction you might be taking things in.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
had the all time classic Diamir FreeRides which my OH still occasionally uses and or we loan to people wanting to give touring a go.
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yeah I still have a pair of skis with those on in our cave for exactly the same reason.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Fitting with the trend I saw outside the huts on the Imperial Haute route last week. I'd say the average ski was even narrower- the most popular ski by far was the BC Orb Freebird (which I have a pair of and like a lot)- and most bindings were Plums or brakeless dynafits, maybe one pair of Kingpins all week.
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I've said it before but when I was up at the Conscrits hut last year my R108 186cm with Beast 14s were the biggest/burliest set up of any of the 50 pairs there. Typical skis would be 88mm and <180cm width with some fixed toe dynafits of some description. And for good reason.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
The Shift - and the Beast - are not tech binding killers. If you're doing actual touring, where the purpose is to gain height and summits as much as ski down, something like the Rad 2.0, Kingpin, Tecton or Plum will clearly be the better and more efficient choice.
If you're touring to ski steeps and mega-gnar, the same applies; skiing slowly and precisely, possibly with locked toes, there's little advantage to a normal binding.
What the Shift will do (if it works) and what the Beast failed to do (IMO!) is kill the frame touring binding. I hope it will be one binding to do it all; a proper jack of all trades, but a skiing binding that you can tour with rather than a touring binding you can ski with. It *should* be safer and more reliable doing things like powder tree skiing (where you might want vertical toe release if you stuff your tips under a buried log etc), dampening vibrations on hardpack, crud and sastrugi, and there should be less adjustment time (like dulcarama I reckon I adjust to touring bindings within and hour or two - the problem is if I've been skiing alpine bindings all week one touring descent often isn't enough time to fully get used to them again). And they will be way more efficient skinning 1000m+ vert than a frame binding.
So yes, they will suit people looking for a 'one binding quiver' better than dedicated hardcore tourers, whether that's locals or travelling skiers who need one set up to cover anything. I'm not sure why anyone would look down on that though . Chasing summits on lightweight kit and wiggling your hips on the way down isn't inherently more admirable or hardcore than lugging heavier kit uphill to ski the steeper slope/couloir/cliff 300m vert below the summit at 5x the speed - which equally isn't necessarily gnarlier or more impressive, either. Just different styles and different ways of enjoying the mountain.
FWIW I know plenty of people doing BIG days around here on Kingpins and Beast 14s too. But then Leo is twice as fast as me uphill even when I'm on Speed Turns and he's on 193 Corvus's with Dukes. Guess some guides would frown on that, but frankly there are plenty of guides out there who aren't anything special on skis anyway. They probably also watched La Liste and frowned disapprovingly at Heitz climbing/skiing 4000ers with 115mm skis and p18s |
This ^^^ Love the old school 🦕 looking down on progress 😉 Stick to your meadow hopping and skinning up the sides of pistes on powder days 🤣
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@jedster, new skis, new opinions, more kit 
Certainly don’t think the light weight touring binding/frame binding combo is bad but the beasts sort of sit between the two in terms of weight and function.
Beasts suddenly costing £200 when I was looking certainly influenced me a bit!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Having seen what old French geezers seem to think is appropriate for alpine skiing I'm not sure why their opinion on touring kit is so revered. Was amused riding a chair in VT to see an old Dynamic straight ski firmly javelinned into the snow below the chair and sure enough at the top a befuddled fartbag wearer hopping around in his SX90s demanding the liftie sort it out. Probably has some touring kit from the 70s he goes out on too.
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| Quote: |
Love the old school 🦕 looking down on progress 😉 Stick to your meadow hopping and skinning up the sides of pistes on powder days
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I'm maybe going to open a can of worms here but I'll ask the question to the forum that is very heavy, safety orientated.
"Why do you want a more elastic release?"
EDIT: I am asking because market trend in the lighter bindings is less elasticity
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 1-05-18 17:37; edited 1 time in total
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In terms of double edged “compliments”, “you look like a member of the CAF” ranks somewhere similar to “you look like a member of the Eagles” (written as a long time member of the Eagles )
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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And one final comment on the ski touring tribes, you will often find that the median age of those doing hut to huts is circa 50 maybe more - and the guides are often nearing that age or over too, but in the past they've done the gnar.
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I'm sure you are right but at the Conscrits there were loads of younger people mainly in their 30s I'd say but there were two younger women from the guides school in Chamonix who were on ultra light kit and came past us at a rate of knots on the way up. In general I felt slow, old and pretty incompetent on the way up but one of the stronger skiers on the way down which rather surprised me (the latter not the former!).
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