 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@bar shaker, not even post Brexit. And the French have applied it now.
Not even sure it's really a "new" law. I <think> rules were in place that the UK government could have enforced in (say) 2015 that would have had the same effect. Had they bothered to apply them.
So not really anything to do with Brexit other than that there will be no freedom of movement which is a different matter entirely.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The BBC article seems to confuse two issues. Posted workers who don't comply with local legislation and labour rates being driven down by a pool of cheap labour.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@davidof, usual top quality BBC Brexit journalism then?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As under a new name suggests. This is not NEW. 3 seasons ago Austria enforced such a move and the French have been doing their utmost for years to frustrate legitimate business in their backyard.
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@bar shaker, I'd be surprised if seasonnaires were ever considered to be "posted workers" under EU Regs. I am admittedly pretty fuzzy on posted workers but my understanding is a posted worker is someone who is initially employed in a different country but is then posted by their employer to an EU member state in order to provide a service. Providing a service is different to being employed under EU rules. Seasonnaires wouldn't come within the definition of providing a service as they would be likely to be employees and also likely to be on a local employment contract.
Some years back I had a long conversation with an EU Regs expert about the difference between someone being a posted worker and an employee. I wasn't smart enough to follow everything she told me (plus EU law really bored the crap outta me back then) but I realised that a lot of people claiming to be posted workers in the EU were actually in disguised employment. This therefore allowed their foreign employers to get around pesky local employment and work permit laws.
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Seasonaires ARE posted workers, if employed by a UK TO in the UK and then sent overseas to work.
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| Old Man Of Lech wrote: |
| Seasonaires ARE posted workers, if employed by a UK TO in the UK and then sent overseas to work. |
As proven in 2003 with the Mark Warner case iirc!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| snow name wrote: |
@bar shaker, I'd be surprised if seasonnaires were ever considered to be "posted workers" under EU Regs. I am admittedly pretty fuzzy on posted workers but my understanding is a posted worker is someone who is initially employed in a different country but is then posted by their employer to an EU member state in order to provide a service. Providing a service is different to being employed under EU rules. Seasonnaires wouldn't come within the definition of providing a service as they would be likely to be employees and also likely to be on a local employment contract.
Some years back I had a long conversation with an EU Regs expert about the difference between someone being a posted worker and an employee. I wasn't smart enough to follow everything she told me (plus EU law really bored the crap outta me back then) but I realised that a lot of people claiming to be posted workers in the EU were actually in disguised employment. This therefore allowed their foreign employers to get around pesky local employment and work permit laws. |
You could have just said you don't understand any of this.
The majority of seasonaires working in France are on UK employment contracts.
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Posted workers was supposed to cover say an engineering firm winning a contract in another country and sending a team of staff to do an onsite installation for say 6 months. Intent was that such arrangements were temporary and workers would revert to home country on completion. Technically it could also be used for say secondments to fill in staff shortages in another company etc. TO use of it was always sailing quite close to the wind IMV as it was probably against at least the spirit of the rules i.e. was there a realistic prospect that staff would ever be working in the UK for any material time pre or post "posting"
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ... TO use of it was always sailing quite close to the wind IMV as it was probably against at least the spirit of the rules i.e. was there a realistic prospect that staff would ever be working in the UK for any material time pre or post "posting" |
But for staff working long-term for large TOs, who might spend say 2 months in Sweden and 3 months in France over the winter, then 5-6 months in Greece/Spain over the summer, with holidays in between, repeated the following year, it was quite sensible. They could work continuously under a UK contract rather than having to swap between 3-4 different country contracts. It also let TOs move people easily between countries to meet demand / withdrawals etc.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ... TO use of it was always sailing quite close to the wind IMV as it was probably against at least the spirit of the rules i.e. was there a realistic prospect that staff would ever be working in the UK for any material time pre or post "posting" |
But for staff working long-term for large TOs, who might spend say 2 months in Sweden and 3 months in France over the winter, then 5-6 months in Greece/Spain over the summer, with holidays in between, repeated the following year, it was quite sensible. They could work continuously under a UK contract rather than having to swap between 3-4 different country contracts. It also let TOs move people easily between countries to meet demand / withdrawals etc. |
Sure but how many "seasonal staff" are on a long term contract like that. For starters I bet TOs aren't keen on paying holiday pay.
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| Quote: |
3 seasons ago Austria enforced such a move and the French have been doing their utmost for years to frustrate legitimate business in their backyard.
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So the Austrians were more effective in frustrating legitimate business?
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You know it makes sense.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, ttbomk, country or regional managers for companies with 2/3/4 season operations are often permanent, if peripatetic staff, seasoning in country in season and doing planning/training/recruitment inter season. Which is fair enough under current/planned rules.
None of that after Brexit though! But never mind, Brighton* Is So Bracing!!
*Brighton may not in fact be a sunnier summer holiday destination than Benidorm, but it is bracing. And I am told it boasts strippers and fish suppers. Who wants to eat all the foreign muck anyway?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It's Skegness that's bracing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@altis, I thought I had Brighton wrong. Does Skegness have strippers?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Dunno
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If this law had been in place for a while, and enforced, it might have changed the Brexit debate a little.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hi All,
Hope you are well. I’ve been made redundant and I am dabbling with the idea of going back to the seasonal lifestyle. (Despite being 36, eeek!)
Obviously now is just about the worst time for it, but I was just wondering, leaving aside CoVid for the moment, is there any update on the regulations for employing U.K. staff in the Alps in regards to Brexit? How will it work down the line?
Apologies if there’s no news on this but was just wondering in case there are any key updates. Any info appreciated.
Thank you!
Ben
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| skiben wrote: |
Hi All,
Hope you are well. I’ve been made redundant and I am dabbling with the idea of going back to the seasonal lifestyle. (Despite being 36, eeek!)
Obviously now is just about the worst time for it, but I was just wondering, leaving aside CoVid for the moment, is there any update on the regulations for employing U.K. staff in the Alps in regards to Brexit? How will it work down the line?
Apologies if there’s no news on this but was just wondering in case there are any key updates. Any info appreciated.
Thank you!
Ben |
claim political asylum
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Or find an Irish grandparent (dont think it matters if North or South)
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Or go to somewhere that isn’t in the EU (Switzerland).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@skiben, From a regular seasonal worker - we're screwed.
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| RobinS wrote: |
| @skiben, From a regular seasonal worker - we're screwed. |
From another. It’s game over. Last chance this winter if you can find any work.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Timg60, We are experienced Chalet chef/host, and experienced transfer drivers, and since the company we were due to work for pulled the plug we have applied for all the tiny number of jobs advertised to no avail.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| RobinS wrote: |
| @Timg60, We are experienced Chalet chef/host, and experienced transfer drivers, and since the company we were due to work for pulled the plug we have applied for all the tiny number of jobs advertised to no avail. |
Yeah it’s all gone to sh**
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You know it makes sense.
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@WindOfChange, All of which are fine if you have an EU passport, or the right to live and work in France, which British seasonal workers do not have.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| RobinS wrote: |
| @WindOfChange, All of which are fine if you have an EU passport, or the right to live and work in France, which British seasonal workers do not have. |
Ditto here too! I did have a French great grandmother, I wonder if that might help 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes you do have a right to work in France with a permit but your employer has got to offer the job to everyone else first before you. It’s not that we cant work ou there anymore but we have been forced to the bottom of the pile.
My hope is associate membership of the EU, but its not a short term solution.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Blimy, taking a look at that helps understand the word "bureaucracy". Gawd knows how many forms, visas, permits, authorisations and stamps you need!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sinner junior has recently had a job offer from one of the major operators, starting December in France. He only has a UK passport. I must admit we were somewhat surprised!
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| Sailbad the Sinner wrote: |
| Sinner junior has recently had a job offer from one of the major operators, starting December in France. He only has a UK passport. I must admit we were somewhat surprised! |
Don’t worry most of the major operators are starting to announce the cancelation of this season. Junior will most likely remain at home
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As far as I understand it, for Austria, if you show up, sort work out, and register as a resident* before 31.12.2020 you're good - for this season. If you leave at the end of the season you obviously would no longer be resident and would have no automatic right to work or live. And this December is the last year that this will work.
*Which I assume will have tax implications if you have UK income too
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@Daleskier,
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"but your employer has got to offer the job to everyone else first before you. It’s not that we cant work ou there anymore but we have been forced to the bottom of the pile."
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That's not the case.
The job has to be advertised, so that anyone can apply. That's what you'd want in a fair society right?
But they don't have to offer it to everybody as you claim.
It's still up to the employer to employ who they choose, and if English language skills are very important, then a British person would be the ideal candidate.
It's similar to @clarky999, says.
Go and find a job and get a contract (before Dec 31st), once you have the contract you can get all the rest of the paperwork.
If you do it before Dec 31st there is way less paperwork.
But you're unlikely to succeed sat at your keyboard in Blighty.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| WindOfChange wrote: |
| You DO have the right to work in FRANCE, you just need to apply for the temporary permit. |
I think what you’re describing is the right to apply for a permit to work (under certain circumstances), rather than the right to work.
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I have read the French Government website, and it seems that it is the employer who has to apply for the seasonal work permit, and justify why they are hiring a non EEA worker. Unless they are desperate employers are not going to go through this bureaucracy when they already have a massive pool of workers to choose from who don't cause this hassle.
As @Daleskier, says, we have been thrown to the bottom of the pile.
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FAQ
