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Ratio of On Piste to Off Piste injuries

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
SnoodlesMcFlude wrote:
My injury was most definitely just me and my fault. Off the top of my head Snowheads that have crocked themselves the overwhelming majority have done so on their own terms.


I cracked (or badly bruised) a rib on the first day of the BB and then succeeded in tearing the same tricep three days running. All down to my poor technique. Amazing how injury and pain helps focus the mind into getting your technique right. rolling eyes I don't think I fell over at all during the last two days. Toofy Grin
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Gämsbock wrote:
It's a shame the data isn't more readily available - the resorts must know it based on number of skiers through the gates/number of incidents.


I've been struck before about this assumption that there's not good data on incidents in the mountains. That's not true, there's loads and a lot of research in the area. There are journals and papers published all the time. Quantifying and managing risk in the mountains is a major research area.

Gämsbock wrote:
@ise, I'm not quite sure I follow. The data you've quoted is from a country where I've never personally been concerned about collision risk on-piste. As far as i understand, you are assuming that risk of an accident follows a uniform distribution, with an accident being equally like at any point in time throughout the season, and, on that basis, off-piste is more risky than on-piste.


I was trying to avoid making any unfounded assumptions. There's a body of data on accidents that shows little real differences between regions. As I pointed out collision numbers are pretty standard across countries.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ise wrote:
Gämsbock wrote:
It's a shame the data isn't more readily available - the resorts must know it based on number of skiers through the gates/number of incidents.


I've been struck before about this assumption that there's not good data on incidents in the mountains. That's not true, there's loads and a lot of research in the area. There are journals and papers published all the time. Quantifying and managing risk in the mountains is a major research area.


I still haven't seen anything quantifying on-piste collision risk at specific peak times (e.g. home runs in peak weeks) and under specific conditions (i.e. unfavourable), or showing how that risk changes (or doesn't) according to those specific conditions. If you have something to link to, I would be genuinely interested.

ise wrote:
Gämsbock wrote:
@ise, I'm not quite sure I follow. The data you've quoted is from a country where I've never personally been concerned about collision risk on-piste. As far as i understand, you are assuming that risk of an accident follows a uniform distribution, with an accident being equally like at any point in time throughout the season, and, on that basis, off-piste is more risky than on-piste.


I was trying to avoid making any unfounded assumptions. There's a body of data on accidents that shows little real differences between regions. As I pointed out collision numbers are pretty standard across countries.


I saw that you said collision numbers were consistent between NA and Switzerland. I didn't see you mention anything about the other European countries. As dp said, an accident can be caused by another skier without there being an actual collision.

ise wrote:
Gämsbock wrote:
@ise, was that only for Swiss resorts? I've generally found the standard of skiing in Switzerland to be pretty high and nor have I experienced overly busy pistes here. So I've never felt at risk from speeding out of control skiers on piste in Switzerland.

However I have experienced those conditions at certain times in other countries.


Ski accidents are not common so you can expect to see some year on year fluctuations in numbers. In other countries with multi year studies to eliminate those fluctuations the figures are around the same, 8% of accidents in North America are skier collisions compared to 7% in Switzerland. Not a significant difference.
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
Gämsbock wrote:
If you have something to link to, I would be genuinely interested.


I'm sent a lot of material directly as a professional courtesy, I don't think it's appropriate for me to publish that even though I don't think it's secret or should be.

My opinion is that a lot of good research and data doesn't reach the public, I think it would be unrealistic to expect it to be read it did but I think there could be more effort made to communicate the bullet points and, where appropriate, reflect it in good practice. My suspicion is that practitioners need to build more confidence with data driven practice and this may take time to get right.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Awdbugga wrote:
I work for myself and can't really afford time off work through injury.

You probably need to take out some protection policy against this as it could occur for a whole host of reasons non-skiing related.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Awdbugga wrote:


I work for myself and can't really afford time off work through injury.


I don't really think the statistics are that important, unless you become one.

It depends what you want to do off-piste? If it is extreme, you fall you hurt yourself, badly, type skiing then you will find it is maybe not compatible with your professional life. A lot of people hurt themselves getting into that game, a fair number now live in the churchyard in Chamonix. Be careful about being led on by others.

The principle difficulty off piste is the wide variety of snow conditions which you don't encounter on piste. If you are a solid skier and you can ski any on piste conditions from hard, icy slopes to slushy mank then you shouldn't have any problem transitioning to non-extreme off piste routes and I don't really think it is any more dangerous. If you are the kind of person who falls a lot on piste, blows turns, catches edges, crashes into other skiers, has to check what colour pistes are on the map etc then maybe you need to refine your on piste skills first. That said spring snow conditions, or winter powder are easy to ski - it is the stuff in between that catches people out.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
ise wrote:
Whitegold wrote:
Global skier-boarder accident and death rates (%) occur on a U-curve.

Beginners = very high.
Intermediates = medium.
Experts = low.
Extremists / Racers = very high.


Wrong


Nice try, son wink

Beginners are 2 x likelier to get injured than experts.

Let me know if you need any further advice.

https://www.snowplaza.co.uk/blog/5316-ski-holidays-beware-of-accidents-on-the-slopes/
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
You need to read the original data for their citation, not the blog and not the infographic. They include minor injuries that don't require further treatment. That's the not the normal measure. The original poster here was concerned about things that would lead to time of work which closer to the normal measure.

They do break their data down in the full version, you'll see mostly it's walk-ins who walk themselves back out again. There's a lot of accident data recorded in other countries and used in metastudies, the fact their output is different should have flagged up some different measures were being used.

I'm away and can't read the full version but I seems to recall it includes a bit of sunburn but I might be thinking of a different dataset

Thanks for the offer, I'll keep it on file.
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Actually, I'll just say I've never heard of the blog and I've not idea what their angle is but if it's promoting skiing then issuing blood curdling warnings to beginners looks a like an own goal.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I wonder if admin could make some adjustments to the system, so the people that start a thread have editorial abilities to remove unwanted posts on their thread or perhaps even block certain people from being able to post on them, period?
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Awdbugga wrote:
I wonder if admin could make some adjustments to the system, so the people that start a thread have editorial abilities to remove unwanted posts on their thread or perhaps even block certain people from being able to post on them, period?


Never gonna happen
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Awdbugga wrote:
I wonder if admin could make some adjustments to the system, so the people that start a thread have editorial abilities to remove unwanted posts on their thread or perhaps even block certain people from being able to post on them, period?


Never gonna happen


I know. I was being drowl.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Awdbugga, off piste is the way forward. Any injuries you get will be more than compensated by the fun you have
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Id say most beginners who get serious injuries come from not continuing to take lessons and thinking they know best.

I was hit last year (thanks to my helmet no damage) using a closed piste to transit from one off piste are to another with a local instructor/guide. So technically off piste. However, the family (who had went under the closed barrier) that cut across the people at the back of our group were booting it.

Two people of our group went off to the side, I followed but was wiped out by the bloke (probably showing off to his kid) who couldn't stop in time for the gap that went from 3m to 1/2 m as I glided off to the edge.

So, a lesson on "don't ski to a small gap" "don't ski through a gap when there is 50m of piste to go past the other way" "don't ski close to people unless you have to and regulate the speed in case".

I would guess that most collision accidents could be prevented by people not being allowed to buy a ski pass unless they read a page on how to ski sensibly and not like an ar5e.

Most of the accidents I've seen are in a group of people on one of these two categories. The SWARM.... A group of 20 people all taking off at the same time all going too close and at different speeds.

Or a family that insist on taking their beginner kid down a black run and the kid loosing it and crashing into someone.


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sat 28-07-18 14:29; edited 1 time in total
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Oh and add the "I've done it brigade".

Hey I'm a beginner or intermediate but I insist it is my right to go down the Cortina downhill run even when the big sign says experts only. I've seen more people in trouble on this run at 29 secs than anywhere else.

http://youtube.com/v/td-Ztl3exQM
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The swarm is a good one and one to which sHs are not immune. I just ski all pistes with a view that some prick is trying to kill me and/or will set off blind into my path ( in which case its my duty to buzz them as closely as safely possible and give them a crash course in Anglo-saxon oaths)
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