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Ideal ski place to buy

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Obviously there's no single answer which suits everyone to the question of buying or not, so I won't argue that my decision is the right one for anyone else other than me. But it's probably fair to point out that you are not constrained to only ever skiing your 'home' resort if you buy a place there. If you're not using it you do have the option of renting it, and using that money to contribute to skiing elsewhere.

I'm now trying to make an effort to use my place more often, but in previous years when I've not been able to get there for more than a week or two during the winter I've rented it for more weeks than would otherwise be the case. In a few of those years I've done slightly better than a 10% ROI during the winter season (although I've always considered the place as an investment in quality of life rather than a financial investment).
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Arctic Roll wrote:


I'm with Rob on this, Les Arcs or indeed any resort once you buy, you get used to it, so you play the system and avoid the bad times. Or do the train.



That’s probably an important point for the OP to throw into the mix. Do you want to be able to jump on a plane and head out, without thinking about time of day, day of week, holiday patterns etc? If you want to be able to travel whenever you want (which also implies not renting it out) then predictability may matter more. My wife and I partially commute from our place which means we’re not necessarily in control of when we have to travel, and discovering there is a traffic jam would be an issue for us.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
If money were no object I'd just whizz off on a whim - lots of wonderful places to rent, complete with staff, lifts to the slopes etc. But we bought a 2 bed apartment in 2002 - I sold it earlier this year. We didn't rent it out (a few weeks a year to friends and relatives for £100 or so to cover costs) but it made a profit. I've not worked it out in detail but we did masses of skiing, walking, and just sitting around, free or at very low cost. That was partly because of our huge wisdom and foresight wink in choosing where to buy, in a small ski area on the verge of enlargement and partly because of luck with exchange rates. 1.62 to the pound when we bought and something like 1.16 when we sold. We spent about 4 months a year there until my OH died in 2012 and even since then I spent 3 months a year there - it was lovely all year round. Grandchildren loved coming back to the same spot, as did we. Fabulous open views - 180 degree mountains, including Mont Blanc. I would not have wanted to be in a ski town or village - they can be very dead and depressing in the "off season" but mountain views are good all year round. Buying now is a massive gamble in terms of exchange rates and - with Brexit - so much else.
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With runaway global warming, melting glaciers, petty trade wars, Brexit, volatile forex, communist taxes, mad local mayors, and cheap Airbnb, buying a second or third property in the European Alps today is a waste of time.

If you must buy, and need a wealth-signaling property, the best buys are:

1. Courchevel 1850 (with airport / heliport).
2. Val d'Isere (heliport).
3. St Moritz (heliport).
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Globally - don't think pads in Aspen, Jackson or Whistler are that vulnerable either though the entry level price of admission is somewhat mind boggling.
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Ive always fancied Bozel in the three valleys. Good all year around activities/ town life and not too difficult to get to at any time of the year
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[quote="Whitegold"]

If you must buy, and need a wealth-signaling property, the best buys are Courchevel 1850 (with airport / heliport).quote]
Does EasyJet fly there?
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
[quote="Jonny996"]
Whitegold wrote:


If you must buy, and need a wealth-signaling property, the best buys are Courchevel 1850 (with airport / heliport).quote]
Does EasyJet fly there?


Ya, they charge you €10 for the ticket, €190 for the add-ons (like ski carriage), put you in a seat designed for a child, and arrive a couple hours later than planned wink
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I wouldn't.
Lots of places in the world I'd like to visit, so wouldn't want to plan on spending all that time in one place for leisure.
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mk28 wrote:
What ski resort would you buy in if you could? This is hypothetical as I have't yet won the lottery. Requirements would be 1) fairly short transfer from the airport 90 mins max. 2) Snow sure, or as snow sure as can be. 3) decent nightlife. 4) I wouldn't buy somewhere that would require a drive to the ski lifts so would need to be in resort. For me St. Anton almost ticks these boxes but I'm pretty sure if you buy there you have to rent it out for some weeks of the year? might be wrong on that. Chamonix ticks them but I'm not a huge fan of the ordeal of getting to the different ski areas. My favourite ski resort is Val D'isere but the transfer is too long especially if you wanted to do a weekend.


If I were still an off piste skier: Zinal.

Given that I am not: Les Deux Alpes (but I am biased by friends who live/go there).
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Each to their own, but there is great comfort in being able to pitch up at an airport carrying nothing more than:passport, keys, wallet & phone.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
when my numbers come in tonight, I will let you all know next week where I have bought Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
terrygasson wrote:
when my numbers come in tonight, I will let you all know next week where I have bought Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin


To be honest if I ever won the lottery I just thought I'd negotiate myself a season ticket somewhere like this

https://www.alaskaheliski.com/location/
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Dave of the Marmottes, i may go for both, bolt hole in the alps and the option to chase the powder around the world!!!, as the advert says "nicer problems to have"
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
What's struck me talking to various Italians, French and Swiss is that they seem to have a different attitude about their main residence vs holiday property. Inasmuch as they will try and acquire a holiday flat or villa ahead of just moving to a bigger primary home. If they can't do it on their own, they might join with siblings and/or parents.

One Italian said to me "Eye leeve in Milano, it is lake errr? Burrmihghamme, yez?" which I thought was giving Birmingham a certain degree of slack, but anyway: he said that the British he'd met seemed to just buy bigger and bigger homes as they could afford to, whereas he thought an Italian in the same circumstances would stay in their modest city flat, and if they could, buy somewhere for holidays. If they couldn't do it on their own, the whole family might club together to get somewhere. In his case, he and his brother had 'working' flats in Milan, and had co-funded with Mum & Dad a seaside flat on the Mediterranean and a mountain flat in the Alps. WHile school hols can produce some clashes re using the place, if you're at that stage where you're working then you have limited scope to use it anyway, so why not share the ownership/costs?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Jonny996 wrote:
Each to their own, but there is great comfort in being able to pitch up at an airport carrying nothing more than:passport, keys, wallet & phone.

It must bbe great and I'm not knocking it but there is the other side that it must be nice to walk away without worrying about Insurance ,leaks bad neighbours and what the snow will be like next time.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
We bought 4 years ago and head home tomorrow, with the family having spent 5 weeks here this summer and no one wants to go home. I can’t say we ever feel the same after a holiday anywhere, we’re normally quite happy to get home.
So I don’t think you can begin to compare the experience of a holiday somewhere compared to owning a home.
Having said that it doesn’t make much economic sense, we could quite easily go on 5 weeks of luxury family ski holidays each year, for the cost of the taxes and utilities alone.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
As part of our Long Term Planning, we bought a property in Chamonix (based mostly on rentability).

We’re 12 years in and ~60% of the mortgage has been paid off, mostly by other people.

We managed to add a little basement apartment to it so these days we have free accomodation at the weekend.

So far, no regrets. Although we have had a few interesting late night calls... Shocked
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@mk28, Verbier? Might get a few speeding tickets to get there in 90mins from Geneva but ticks all your other boxes. Not cheap but you only live once!
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@doddsie, most of us can't take 5 weeks off!
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Just remember to calculate how much your 100k (or more) will earn for you while you are renting in different resorts and countries over the next 20+ years 😊
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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Quote:

I understand the arguments for spending the money on trips rather than the an apartment / house.... but we know the hoteliers, the restauranteers, the shopkeepers, the neighbours, and the resort like the back of our hand: the stashes, the good and bad pistes and their times of days, the queues and how to avoid. It's a lifestyle choice and a home from home. Have we 'lost' opportunity money? God yeah.
Do I wish we skied other resorts more often? Yes... ( but as I approach retirement, that becomes more financially / time viable!)
Do I regret buying? Nope. never.

I agree

But back to the original question - where would be ideal. The correct answer is that nowhere is ideal. It is all a set of compromises.

You want the best resort for your money. Whatever "best" means -

To some people having lots of slopes within a short drive is ideal but they don't care that they have to drive to even the nearest one. To others it is essential to put your skis on straight outside the front door and never want to drive anywhere.

Some people what a pretty village to wander in is important, others may want beautiful mountains to view from their window.

Some people want a big place others are content with compact.

To some being close to a town or lake in the summer is important; to others being in the mountans with hiking, climbing and mountain biking is important.

As to time from the airport - This is an odd one for me. It is much more complicated than 90 minutes from the nearest airport. I have an apartment in Les Arcs. It is two to two and a half hours from Geneva but less than 90 minutes from Chambery. There are loads of flights to Geneva a week some at very useful times such as early evening from Luton (only a couple hours from home, so even the 2 hours transfer from Geneva becomes a tiny part of the journey time) and later in the evening back. There are few midweek flights to Chambery and they are mainly at the weekend and then only during the winter. I've never flown to Chambery. Innsbruck may have lots or resorts nearby but having to change planes in Frankfurt sort of makes that irrelevant.

And then there is the cost of properties in different resorts.

Sorry it's all about comprimises
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@johnE, agreed.

For me, retirement meant that I could spend as much or as little time in the Alps as I wanted, so buying a 'home from home' made good sense. No lugging equipment, etc., back and forwards to the UK and a chance to get to know others in resort.

I wanted ski in / ski out and a large ski area. Like others on this thread I picked Les Arcs and am very happy with my choice.
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Sarge McSarge wrote:
Just remember to calculate how much your 100k (or more) will earn for you while you are renting in different resorts and countries over the next 20+ years 😊


Managed by a proper broker the annual returns could easily exceed rental returns, if not capital appreciation.

And my initial suggestion of visiting rather than buying was borne out of seeing too many people work their back bottoms off to build up the nest egg and retirement plan only for them to be unable to see those plans through due to plain old age, ill health, or unfortunately an unexpected, early death.

I've chosen to spend my time accumulting experiences and memories before any of the above kicks in.

Some may call me a fatalist, but I feel I'm a realist having buried too many schoolfriends who didn't make 50, let alone 70.
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Interesting thread. A place in Austria remains my pipe-dream, agree with the comments about difficulty in finding places for sale. That notwithstanding, the major problem - and can only get worse - is affordability. @rob@rar, 1.62 € for a £ that will probably be a record exchange rate for generations to come! I am terrified that this season will be my last of 4 trips as the £ will almost inevitably continue to crash further next year. Forgetting a summer holiday in 2019 as I think it is probable that the £ will slip below parity to € and not just for the twits who buy their currency at airports’ f ex counters.
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We bought in Kirchberg . Never regretted it. I re mortgaged the house in the Uk to raise the capital. That house has gone up maybe 50k in value, the Austrian one, Id have to pay 3 times that amount just in tax if I were to sell it now. 3 Airports nearby so no reliant on one airline. A proper town even in summer. Doesn't cover 100% of the mortgage etc renting it out, but the capital growth way outstrips that issue. No regrets. Well only one, Im not in a position just yet 13 years later to move out full time.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Mike Pow wrote:
abc wrote:
Sorry @Mike Pow, false economy.

At the end of 20 years, you have some good memory for all the skiing. The property owner still have a £100,000 property on top of the ski memories at the end of 20 years, which they may sell to convert to other hobbies.


Life is for living. Quality living IMHO.

I'm 52 this November, so if I was able to ski wherever and whenever I wanted until the age of 72 I'd be more than happy.


Also £100 per night now, but how much in 20 years, £1000 per at the same hotel?
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rogg wrote:
Mike Pow wrote:
abc wrote:
Sorry @Mike Pow, false economy.

At the end of 20 years, you have some good memory for all the skiing. The property owner still have a £100,000 property on top of the ski memories at the end of 20 years, which they may sell to convert to other hobbies.


Life is for living. Quality living IMHO.

I'm 52 this November, so if I was able to ski wherever and whenever I wanted until the age of 72 I'd be more than happy.


Also £100 per night now, but how much in 20 years, £1000 per at the same hotel?


Way less than £100 per night now. I was taking inflation into consideration.

And the theoretical money which I hadn't used on purchasing a property would be working for me over this period.

And I looked at this from a front loading perspective - more skiing in my 50s than in my 60s and more sking in my 60s than in my 70s.

Enjoying the travelling and skiing whilst I'm fit and able enough to do it.

As I get older and less able, reduce the number of days skiing and transition to non-skiing trips to the mountains and beach time to warm my old bones.

I've been on this path pretty much every winter since my first full season in 1993.

Barring injury or ill health I don't see it changing any time soon thankfully.

And I won't have a 'mountain asset' at the end of this, but I have no kids to whom I feel morally obligated to bequeath anything to.

As long as I have the money to pay for my funeral arrangements and an open bar, job done. Whenever that may happen.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:


And I won't have a 'mountain asset' at the end of this, but I have no kids to whom I feel morally obligated to bequeath anything to.

I've a feeling you will need a solid wood dining table set though.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Interesting thread indeed - it's not just about buying a holiday home, it's about the very different attitudes we all have to money, the future, old age, families, death and taxes. Life - in other words.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
T Bar wrote:
Quote:


And I won't have a 'mountain asset' at the end of this, but I have no kids to whom I feel morally obligated to bequeath anything to.

I've a feeling you will need a solid wood dining table set though.


Coffin?

See above Smile
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w wrote:
Interesting thread indeed - it's not just about buying a holiday home, it's about the very different attitudes we all have to money, the future, old age, families, death and taxes. Life - in other words.


Exactly Smile
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
No question ……… Zug, in the Vorarlberg.
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Quote:

I wouldn't.
Lots of places in the world I'd like to visit, so wouldn't want to plan on spending all that time in one place for leisure.

Look on it as akin to getting married after a lifetime of serial monogamy wink
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the ideal ski place to buy is anywhere that works for you, re jobs, commute, language. For us it's in the PdS, living in the area full time. After 13 years hard labour in London, and now 7 years here, the lifestyle is incomparable. My favourite time in the mountains is Nov-Dec, first big snowfalls arrive and there is no one around. I now prefer summer in the alps compared to Spain / South of France, as the heat is tolerable (25c vs 35c), far less people etc

When you live near the alps you are spoilt for choice. You don't have to restrict yourself to one resort, can always rent yours out short / long term and spend the money elsewhere. If you have a flexible job / self employed then you can pretty much hit every big storm that rolls in, so basing yourself in a valley, at say 1000m, isn't a disaster for getting good snow. There's normally one major dump a month within easy reach.

For relatively good value around here, I know a lot of people are very happy in Les Carroz, or other towns in the Grand Massif with access to Flaine (2500m).
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@polo, I remember Sallanches being a good valley floor location for accessing many decent ski resorts. But its a while since I been there.
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In my area of Austria, the thing to do is buy a place within easy distance of Salzburg (and Munich) and then get a season pass, such as (for EUR 725), "The Super Ski Card: 1 ticket, 201 ski days per year, 23 ski regions in six provinces with more than 2,700 slope kilometres and 900 cable cars and lifts! "
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
No need to spend £100k.

Loads of studios/apartments available in places like snow-sure and rent-sure Tignes for a lot less than that.

And doubling the purchase price doesn't double the income.
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do owners not struggle to rent out the 20>25m2 studios?
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LaForet wrote:
What's struck me talking to various Italians, French and Swiss is that they seem to have a different attitude about their main residence vs holiday property. Inasmuch as they will try and acquire a holiday flat or villa ahead of just moving to a bigger primary home. If they can't do it on their own, they might join with siblings and/or parents.

One Italian said to me "Eye leeve in Milano, it is lake errr? Burrmihghamme, yez?" which I thought was giving Birmingham a certain degree of slack, but anyway: he said that the British he'd met seemed to just buy bigger and bigger homes as they could afford to, whereas he thought an Italian in the same circumstances would stay in their modest city flat, and if they could, buy somewhere for holidays. If they couldn't do it on their own, the whole family might club together to get somewhere. In his case, he and his brother had 'working' flats in Milan, and had co-funded with Mum & Dad a seaside flat on the Mediterranean and a mountain flat in the Alps. WHile school hols can produce some clashes re using the place, if you're at that stage where you're working then you have limited scope to use it anyway, so why not share the ownership/costs?


I did consider buying in around the Motril area of spain. Close to Sierra Neveda & the beaches, etc.
However, we decided against it, as there are so many places we would like to visit. A holiday home would sap all our holiday fund as we would feel the need to have to use it. So instead we moved house locally.
Incidentally, our friend have just bought in Spain & they cant ski this year - they hope so next year if they cant rent the place out enough.
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