 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| beeryletcher wrote: |
| Now heres the maths: 16.85m as a % of 17.15m is 98.2%. Relationship between incline of ski and radius of circle is in fact linear, so 98.2% of 30 degrees is 29.5 degrees. |
Strictly, the tangent of the angle of inclination. The point is well made though. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Masque,
haha - right idea Mr Masque - wrong bladder - mine's a five pinter ! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beeryletcher, PS, thanks for the maths, I've been using exaggerated examples to illustrate the bio-mechanisms involved in skiing and I'm certain that we can define and refine a definitive treatise of the whole process and all the factors involved.
I'm stunned by skimottaret's comment that bio-mechanics are not part of basic ski-instructor training . . . that might go some way to mitigate veeight's obdurate stance. How can an activity that is completely dependent on the physical and mental abilities of its participants to control their interface with, what to all intents and purposes is a very dangerous environment . . . not include basic physiology as a primary principle in the introduction to the teaching process???
There are lots of things I do wrong on skis . . I blame age, infirmity, and laziness . . . but I understand why I'm screwing up and I've obviously been blessed in what little instruction I've had as that they have both been able to see what I've been doing, comment on my lapses and let me get on with my own learning process.
I'm going to record some thoughts, post them in another thread (this one should be closed) and invite constructive comment to build an informed reference for people who want to understand how it all works . . . Life, the Universe, Everything . . . 
Cheers, John
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Masque, A general Bio mechanics thread would be a great, i tried a while back with a few threads, but the anti BZK's brigade scared many off...
Body Mechanics
Pelvic Tilt
Stance width
Optimal Balance point
V8 (i think) is canadian trained and they definately do more mechanics stuff, BASI at L1 and L2 virtually nothing other than CoM and force vectors, planes of movement and warm up cool downs.
At ISIA level it starts to kick in but not in any great depth AFAICS....
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Masque - Austrians definitely do study biomechanics AIUI. They have a much better grasp on what bits of me do not work and how that pans out. So despite language issues I often skied with them at home. My understanding is this is what makes the staatliche stuff so full on - lots of depth of study not just skiing. I remember one staatliche unable to tell me the muscle names in english playing "point to muscles" to explain things to me.
Some French instructors also seem to have good biomechanics - Fred from ESF in Les Deux Alpes comes to mind.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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little tiger, spot on the French do spend a lot of time on physiology, I have no experience with Austrians but could see it there as well as there coaching is so strong. BASI is well behind, sadly the physilogy and anatomy "module" is buying two books and sending them the receipt... There is nothing skiing specific at all. Sadly, even during a week of theory they dont touch on it...
Masque I was hoping to get some input on Body mechanics from the resident physicians, physios and personal trainers. That would be really interesting IMO and perhaps instead of an open forum setting out a treatise may stimulate more discussion...
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Can I appeal to ALL snowHeads; If during a lesson an instructor comments on your "Excessive Inner Ski Tip Lead" or the identical nature of your ski tracks, then PLEASE do not beat him, or her, to death with any large blunt (or sharp) objects near to hand.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Frosty the Snowman, GBH OK?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Frosty the Snowman, Do you really think that any instructor would get into the techi level of this discussion with a client on the hill... Or is your point a dig about how nerdy discussions have no place on 's I thought this thread has taken a turn for the better
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skimottaret, no none of them, just my feeble atempt at light hearted drivveliness. You know full well that I think this type of discussion plays a pivotal part in the forum
EDIT: I mentioned 20 pages ago that I had shared a lesson with masque at the eosb and the instructor had mentioned his EITL and I had pissed myself laughing.
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You know it makes sense.
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Frosty the Snowman, My interest in the thread was because I have had trainees argue with me on the hill. It can be a lot harder to think of suitable responses at -10C.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wahey. 27 pages
Sharing a t-bar this week with a well known and highly regarded (on here) ISTD trainer, I related the crux of the past 26 pages to him, and he was absolutely incredulous that any good skier and/or instructor should even contemplate that they should diverge their feet/boots/skis at the start of the turn, and came to the conclusion that the fools that propogated the inside ski skis a tighter radius camp as well as the diverge your skis camp can't possibly have ever ski'd a clean set of arcs in their life.
We then stood for a while watching some good high level GS racers create some nice clean cresent moon shapes around the gates, with parallel shins, equal edge angles.
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Poster: A snowHead
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veeeight, You really are a waste of wax. NO one has argued that to begin a turn you deliberately diverge your skis, Divergence is caused by the bio-mechanics of the human body as it absorbs the progressive angles of lean required by the carving turn. Controlling it is the deliberate act.
Differing turn radius of individual skis is proven as it is the reason for similar radius of tracks. It's obvious that you do not have the abilities to even read 27 pages accurately, much less conduct any real-world observation and you certainly don't have any concept of how the flexible relationship of two legs and feet in articulation effects human movement let alone the skiing process.
Misrepresenting the views in this thread to mock us isn't clever, just the sad 'click' of the key to the lock of a closed and terminally stunted mind 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
NO one has argued that to begin a turn you deliberately diverge your skis
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Oh yes they have. Multiple people, multiple times. Do read carefully!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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veeeight, So let's get this straight . . . you're not an idiot only because some people have said that to begin a turn we start with ski diversion . . . and because of that, all your wilful ignorance is ameliorated? That moves us forward I suppose 
All our tail skidding, wedge turn, aspiring carvers will take great comfort from being wrong.
Stop grasping at excuses for being a prick and bring some informed debate to this subject or shove your head back up yer butt and save my fingers from spending more time trying to eliminate the coprolite between your ears.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Masque wrote: |
| you're not an idiot |
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| Stop grasping at excuses for being a prick |
| Quote: |
| or shove your head back up yer butt |
Masque with respect, I'm not convinced your communication is moving the argument forward. The last time I checked ( though to be fair it could well have changed ) holding a belief which goes against the main-stream isn't illegal and shouldn't warrant that form of response.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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david@mediacopy, other things are influencing my mood but if you think that I'm stepping over the line I'll remove it But (there's always one). I'm utterly tired of veeeight's obdurate and wilful ignorance that has now just become destructive and I don't feel any remorse in reacting directly toward him in the same manner. He's offered nothing but faux maths, execrable science and laughable explanations for both and has now just reverted to mocking condescension . . . Should I 'suck up' my feelings or treat him in the manner I personally feel appropriate . . . it is a judgement call.
Holding a belief is fine and there is always ambiguity in that . . . but this discussion is not about belief, it's abut a practical and bio-mechanical process that is identifiable, measurable, quantifiable, and reproducible . . . that's applied science with the wonderful variable human factor to make it interesting. veeeight does not have a belief, he has a theory that so far he has been unable to explain with any degree of competence, which for a person in his position, is untenable . . . so I call him a prick . . . harsh, but in my head, applicable.
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| veeeight wrote: |
We then stood for a while watching some good high level GS racers create some nice clean cresent moon shapes around the gates, with parallel shins, equal edge angles. |
V8, please explain how you think the skis are getting separated further from turn initiation to turn apex (to produce your crescent moon track shape), if not via divergence. The other reasonable option would be manually pulling the inside ski sideways to create the larger amount of separation, and if that was done your clean inside ski track would be tossed out of the window. Neither of those options will work and still produce ALL the results you state you see. Please explain to me what idea is spinning around in that head of yours that makes all these numerous individual concepts you're promoting in regard to track types and shapes work together and make sense to you.
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First post on this site - I was searching for posts on Head Monster 78s and wondered how I ended up here, but I see "head", as in "shove your head up yer butt" has been highlighted a few times: it's a funny old world.
Anyway, if Beeryletcher is correct (and I'm sure he is), we're dealing with angle differences in the region of half a degree. I don't think V8, or anyone else, (apart from the Bionic Man), could spot that sort of difference in the leg angles of a fast-moving skier - especially from a ski lift. Slightly daft, therefore, to claim exactly parallel shins / equal edge angles.
Anyone tell me where the Monster thread is?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks
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FastMan, more than happy to, on the hill, or in a conversation. But not on here. All I will say is that you try it for yourself, just tipping, no rotary. Christ. That sounded like a HH copyrighted sentence! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Ah, a novel tactic, by way of a change to answering questions that haven't been asked and refuting points which haven't been put: when a difficult question is posed, simply refuse to answer it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
Masque with respect, I'm not convinced your communication is moving the argument forward. The last time I checked ( though to be fair it could well have changed ) holding a belief which goes against the main-stream isn't illegal and shouldn't warrant that form of response. |
The laws of geometry are just that: laws. They cannot be broken, even by V8 and his stupidity.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| All I will say is that you try it for yourself, just tipping, no rotary. |
Ok Let's. You tell me exactly what I need to do in "tipping" and we'll move it along in a civil, constructive discourse.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think everyone should just give up! You're never going to persuade veeeight round to your way of thinking. You should just post a sweet smiley in response  And the 'discussion' will die.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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cathy, Frosty the Brains-in-his-Coin-Purse . . has a lot to answer for 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Masque, indeed! I bet he never guessed there were so many worms still around 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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cathy, there are always worms around a corpse . . . 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Good grief, I come back here for the first time in months and this thread is still going?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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paulcl, well actually no - it had thankfully ground to a halt until you posted! Go away!! 
Nothing happening here - move along now.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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cathy, how shall we move along?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Monty Python's armless, legless knight is brought to mind.
Or, following on
Always look on the bright side of life
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
