Should Resorts Have Ski Cops?

A snowHead

Following the Austrian introduction of ski cops to catch reckless skiers and confiscate lift passes should other countries follow suit?

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=31093

A snowHead

Can you add another box for "I like a woman in uniform" please?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Most resorts in the US have at least two groups who focus on this function: the Ski Patrol and ambassadors/hosts. They often patrol slow skiing zones and keep an eye out on other parts of the mountain.

I should know. Yesterday, I was "pulled over" by a patroller after carving down a blue run at the request of my examiner. Seems our examiner had us carving in a slow zone and that didn't please the patroler. Interestingly, he was on a snowmobile and jetted down the hill to catch me. Of course, the host who was nearby had no problem with it.

After all, I was skiing pretty slow. For me, anyway! NehNeh

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Can you add another box for "I like a woman in suspenders" please?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Definitely in the busy areas where people of mixed abilities are converging because its the resort/popular lift/end of the day.

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I think about half of blues (the less exciting ones) and all greens should be nominated "slow zones". Let's face it - if you want to ski fast, there are blues and red you can carve down and pick up a lot of speed. By nominating some blues as slow, an able skier can choose whether (s)he prefers to ski the unnominated (fast) blues at his/her own speed, or stick to the speed limit on those nominated blues.

Less capable skiers should stick to skiing slopes at their ability, or staying to the edge of pistes when they want to try something more challenging. I have no problem finding blue-level skiers on a tough black, but it can be annoying if they're lined up across the slope deciding how to escape. Don't forget - we were all beginners once!

And yes, I realise that it's easy to take a wrong turn and end up on a slope beyond your ability - if that's the case, and you get taken out by a fast skier, you have to bear some responsibility for ending up on the slope you did (although the accident itself may have been totally the fault of the other skier).

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masopa, what's "slow"?

That's my problem. I ski faster than most people, especially on blues. I work really hard to stay away from everyone else on the slope whenever I can, since I know that Mach 6 can scare people. But, I prefer to crank big carves than skid down a slope to go very slow. When I am carving, I may slow way down at the end of a turn, but will accelerate significantly through the fall line.

If I could get a clear idea of "slow," it would help me... But, alas, nonesuch.

After all it is free

You're right, it's subjective. However, I think "slow" on a green should be slower than "slow" on a blue. What we're trying to avoid here is scaring and ultimately crashing into people at speed. You can't avoid accidents, but you can reduce the risk and the impact speed by slowing down.

Since people on reds & blacks should be able to look out for themselves, I don't see speed limits on these slopes as fair for the majority (although if there were speed limits on blacks, I'd be surprised if many people exceeded them!)

The problem is nervous beginners/early intermediates on greens and blues. I think all greens should really be slow zoned - let's face it, we have the rest of the mountain to choose from, so why fly down gentle slopes scaring people who can't ski anywhere else? As for blues, you rightly imply that they are very handy for us to practice certain techniques on, as well as enjoy a blast from time to time. Therefore, I suggest some of them (half?) are nominated as "slow" pistes, with the remainder as "fast" pistes.

However, to be totally fair and equitable to all us mountain users, skittles should be rounded up from blacks and deposited (via snowcat or whatever) at the bottom or top and given a serious telling off about skiing beyond their ability...

masopa, I like it!

To make sure I have the rankings right, what's the difference between a blue and a red? In the US, we have green (easiest), blue (more difficult), and black (most difficult). There are double-black (experts only) and caution (on the more extreme mountains). Some mountains, like Breck, use a blue/black for a designation between blue and black. Is this a red in Europe?

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Ah sorry, ssh, I forgot about that - I'm talking European gradings! I've never skied in North America, so don't have any personal experience, however I can confidently say that the European gradings are basically random, so it doesn't really matter!

Seriously though, I think there is a lot of overlap - some Euro blacks might be double-diamonds, some singles. Some Euro reds might be single-diamonds, some US blues. I'd imagine that most Euro blues are US blues, but a few might be US greens.

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There isn't much consistency in Europe with piste ratings so I think a direct comparison with the US would be difficult.

Is anybody else thinking

".... and for those of you at home watching this in black and white, the blue ball is just behind the black"

no, I didn't think so.

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DB, ha ha - is it just me, or do other people sometimes find it hard to differentiate some short blues and blacks on the pocket piste maps? Once took my girlfriend (green, maybe blue skier) onto the beginning of a black by mistake - had to backtrack rapidly!!

Isn't the problem of collisions caused by over crowded pistes ?, particularly runs to resort at the end of the day.

Was in Chamonix last week and experienced the Pierre a Ric (red run) as the only skiable return from Lognan to Argentiere. Went down for lunch one day, the piste was nearly deserted and it was quite safe (and fun Very Happy

) to indulge in some very fast speeds. At the end of every afternoon however it was chaos, bodies everywhere slithering with little control on large sections of ice cube type ice. This wasn't helped by ski school groups being led side slipping down some of the narrower sections. No wonder all the regulars I spoke to said they avoided it and usually got the chairlift back down instead.

Another example is the Tourmaline (blue) at Flaine. This is served by a fast 8 (I think) seater chair and is the only return to Flaine from the Samoens, Morrilon and Les Carroz areas. This is a wide open piste at the top with room for everybody, but it just gets narrower and narrower. Surely a recipe for disaster when so many skiers and boarders are funnelled together.

Wouldn't better design of the piste systems reduce the number of accidents ?

You know it makes sense.

I have to say I'm quite surprised at this. I confidently expected at least 90% of people to have voted the same way as me, ie no way do we want cops on the slopes, and was amazed over three quarters had voted for them!!

I can't think of anything worse than having to keep an eye out for ski patrollers, having to fork out for another lift pass just because some t***er tells me how fast I should be skiing. One of my friends said he had his pass confiscated in Heavenly (think it was Heavenly) and said he wasn't going fast at all (in his opinion!).

What else do you all want? - speed cameras, fines, a points system, maybe year/season bans??? Very Happy

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I didn't vote, neither option seemed right somehow. I don't like the idea of ski patrollers, but then again something has to be done about the stupid antics of some people on piste. I still prefer better information as a solution - safety posters, signs banning beginners from some slopes "for their own security"... More encouragement to take lessons. More emphasis by ski schools on the safety aspect of skiing, rather than on improving technique. The clear message has to be got across that you can be up on a charge of ABH if you crash into someone from behind, even imprisoned if the injuries are bad enough.

A snowHead

"What else do you all want? - speed cameras, fines, a points system, maybe year/season bans??? "

No - just someone official to enforce a modicum of common sense - and remove the stoneheads & drunks.

My sister came very close to very serious injury in Les Arcs at Christmas when someone ran across the back of her skis. He was going extremely fast; she is a competant skier, but was going at a speed suited to the conditions - ie slowly, because it was crowded.
The incident took place at the base of the runs at 1800 - the right-hand side entry as you look from the shops.
He was a big bloke, she is of slight build. He was not in control. If he'd been a foot to the left he'd have hit her sideon and flattened her - she would have been seriously injured, there is no doubt of this. Surprisingly, he stopped and I caught up with him too. He was clearly drunk, insisted it was her fault and told her to f-off.

This person should have been removed from the slopes instantly. He presented a clear and significant danger to other slope users. If this had happened in the States, he would have been removed and proper thing too.

If a slope-cop had seen this and acted appropriately, the slopes would have been safer for all. I'm certain this isn't the only incident where such action would have been appropriate.

I ski fast - sometimes very - but I slow down when there's people around and I try to ensure the only person I endanger is myself. There's a lot who think the only person of any importance is themselves (like the pisshead who took out my sister) - these are the people who cause accidents and wreck the experience for others. A few patrols down the base of the slope with a reputation for firm, fair, pass-removal and it most-likely wouldn't have happened....

rant over.

A snowHead

I think there are two types of accidents, those caused through honest mistakes or unintentional accidents e.g a skier catches an edge higher up the slope and falls coliding with a person who was further down, a simple one of those things type accident with no one to blame, then we have the out of control skier or boarder who cannot control their descent safely down the slopes who colides with someone then carries on down the slope, take that persons ski pass away and we can all continue to enjoy the slopes safely.

A few years ago I was present when a class of Club Med kids with insufficient teachers managed to hit a person who was staying in the same hotel as myself, the ski teachers got the kid responsible up off the slope and carried on skiing, the person they hit had a broken leg, now I'm not blaming the kid here but the teacher in charge should not have skiied off, in the end the hotelier was so annoyed that he called the village policeman (a friend of his) and they summoned the Manager of the Club Med hotel and the teacher in charge of the class to face the injured person, after about 15 mins all was sorted, the Club Med admitted they'd had too many kids for the class (over 30 between 2 teachers) and that they should not have skied off, rather than enter a big court case they came to an understanding with regard to costs, medical fees and so on, no prosecution was carried out the policeman went for a drink with the hotelier and the injured person was compensated for their injury and costs, ok it worked out in the end but if a piste policeman or whatever you want to call them had seen the class earlier in the day they could have stoped it for not having enough teachers for the class size and then the accident might not have happened at all

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

As I see it there are plenty of resort officials on the slopes already and I'm all for them being encouraged to speak to/tell off people who they feel are skiing beyond their abilities.

I think the two important points are first that the emphasis is on skiing beyond your abilities, ie dangerously and out of control. This is very different to just skiing fast. I saw some french guys in Courchevel in January (probably locals) who were absolutely flying down the piste - one did a heli just coming off the compression in the piste - absolutely phenomenal stuff but in no way were they out of control or skiing dangerously given the relatively empty state of the piste and their awesome ability!!

The second thing is that I think the system should remain relatively informal, ie pisteurs shouldn't be able to fine skiers or confiscate lift passes except in extreme circumstances. I think the system as it stands now is actually pretty much spot on.

PG, I agree that ski schools should actively educate on the safety issues. However, in my experience instructors do tend to make an effort in this respect.

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Matthew Clarkson, we have this a lot in the US. I must admit that I rarely see people pulled over who shouldn't have been. Even when I was nailed yesterday, I can understand why he did it. I don't agree that I was going too fast or out of control, but I may have frightened a skier who wasn't too experienced--although it was a steeper blue.

The point is, if you don't want to go slower, don't ski in a slow zone. In general, there are no "snow cops" on non-slow zone trails, and you're not likely to have a talking to there unless you're being dangerous. Of course, I have seen that, too! Evil or Very Mad

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Matthew - in Europe it's EXTREMELY rare to see an official on the piste other than those weilding blood-wagons or carrying out maintainance.
The only place you tend too see any congragation of them is at lifts, and they're the liftites.

The - and many other - accident I referred to was out of site of the lifties (and all other officials), but in a high-danger area, with skiers of different abilities being funelled into the lift appraoch. To site a patrol there would be obvious and effective.

You are completely correct re. you're point about skill and, especially - space. Good patrollers shouldn't have a problem with people doing such in relatively empty areas.

Essentially, it's all down to common sense - unfortunately lacking in a significant minority on the pistes, hence the need for ski-cops.

Incidentally - modern passes and communications mean if a warning has been issued it can be available for all patrols to see. The 'one warning then out' is easy and simple to effect, and will have a marked effect on the behaviour of the few that will never develope any degree of thoughtfulness.

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Matthew Clarkson, I'll agree, that on a lot of pistes you don't want to penalise fast skiing (just dangerous, out-of-control stuff). However, I still think on beginner slopes, some kind of speed limit is sensible...

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Forgive me if i missed this, I've only scanned quickly through the thread, but in America surely there's some kind of 3 strikes and your out rule?
Some kind of clipping an offenders ticket?

After all it is free

ssh, wasn't there a fatal collision in Breck last year? As I recall, it was on a slow run, near the 10 Mile Station, so the piste police didn't help very much there.

One problem with marking some pistes as slow areas is that it implies you can throw caution to the winds on all the other runs. If you can't avoid an accident when someone does something idiotic in front of you, you're going too fast, whatever the piste grading. And if there's no-one in front of you, a rule that tells you that you must slow down anyway will just make you feel grumpy. We need more emphasis on skiing safely and less on skiing slowly.

I've a feeling in some resorts in America it's goodbye to your lift pass on your second strike, but I've never skied there, this is just what I've heard - I'm sure I'll be corrected!!

If this is true though then I guess this is what worries me. Just two slightly over-zealous ski patrollers and it's enough to ruin your holiday, especially as looking in the brochures the ski passes seem somewhat overpriced in n.america.

Essentially we all seem to be agreeing though. Real idiots do need to be taken off the slopes, as long as it doesn't infringe on the freedoms of the sensible vast majority.

I'm still not convinced of the case for speed limits or mandatory 'go-slow' zones though. Not what skiing's about to my mind. I think it would be a shame if it happened, even on the busy slopes as I'm sure they aren't busy all the time.

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sherman-maier it is now the law in Italy. Cops will patrol pistes.
They have gone as far as taking a radar on some piste and clocking people.
It was an experiment, they say, and they will not use it "officially". Rahter they will
make judgemnt on who to fine/who to take the lift ticket away from, hear hear, ski instructors.

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Quoted from the link above:
Ski instructor Walter Thur, who has been asked to become one of the new piste policemen in Salzburg, said: "It's a bit like the Wild West: the slopes are full of cowboys pelting along at high speed, and it's almost totally lawless as almost everyone ignores the rules. A piste police force is the only way forward."

Well, I was in Galtuer, a couple of years ago, and witnessed an instructor sitting in the middle of a narrowing in the piste (it was one of those signgle point of passage to reach the bottom from upper slopes) with all his class nicely spread out to occupy the whole whidth of the class.
So, IMHO instructors are part of the problem, they do not teach anymore correct "mountain rules" (or ski etiquette, put it as you wish), or at least, they seem not to push it into their pupil's heads a strongly as they were doing when I was taking lessons.

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I agree completely Matteo, safety still figures in the teaching method but is definitely not a priority. Ask a child who should be old enough to understand to explain the 'Piste Rules' after a week's tuition in a group. What are the odds that he/she doesn't know a single one? Pretty high, I reckon. And I doubt many adults would perform much better in a random spot questionnaire on this subject!

Right PG but you see, the fact is that a week only tuition is not enough.
It takes years, and instructors are just part of it, we parents must also be of example.
I went to ski school every year for at least a week, for a period of 11 years.
That is the time frame I'm talking about. We pretend to move at too fast a pace, nowadays.

You know it makes sense.

Matteo, Sure, my own kids have done the same. The safety culture has to be taught both short-term and long-term, by instructors and parents alike. The quicker it's drummed into their heads the better, though! And as I've pointed out elsewhere the resorts themselves are partly to blame - not enough visible warnings, safety leaflets buried under the piles of commercial stuff in the tourist offices, etc. And what about the tour operators? They should include pamphlets on security with every ticket and brochure they send out. It all helps....

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Intresting I had a similar conversation during my holiday, basically it would appear that ski schools are trying to get people out and on the piste as rapidly as possible these days, One friend of mine litteraly learnt to snowboard in 3 days, fortunately he was a skier and as such new the basic piste rules as none were covered in the 3 days training, day 1 learn how to stand up, day 2 learn how to go in a straight line, day 3 learn how to turn. This could well explain why so many skiers think that snowboarders are dangerous.

The above example is a pretty good reason for some sort of Piste police but it's an even better reason for proper instruction and training

A snowHead

It seems to me that the presence of Piste Police does not necessitate speed restrictions. They would basically have to police the piste rules. They would need to show some common sense.

I'm not sure about speed restrictions either. I've used empty (or relatively empty) blues to practise carving style turns and can build up a reasonable amount of speed. It stay safe by practising the piste rules within that, and will stop or slow when encountering others. I'm sure many others use blues like this. A speed restriction would make that very difficult.

There should be a real campaign to get the piste rules out there and well known. However, until they are well known then the police could be used and there is an argument that they could be used to enforce them.

It should be remembered that when skiing in a resort, on pisted runs and off lifts, you are doing so as a paying customer to a commercial organisation that probably rents private or public land and they, and the country you are in has absolutely no obligation to let you do it. They do all the work and if you're going to put others lives at risk, there's no rights they are violating by preventing you on their lift.

Incidentally, I once saw a ski instructor get someone thrown off the slopes for skiing too fast (I mean very fast) and in too little control through a nursery slope. It happened a long time ago, and I should have seen it since, but haven't.

A snowHead

skanky, I agree - in theory, there should be no need for speed limits on roads - everyone should drive at an appropriate and safe speed. However, most people don't and won't.

In an ideal world, there would be enough "ski cops" around to patrol the slopes, and if - as you say - the blue run is empty, I'm sure the cop would use his/her discretion to let people fly down.

However, given resorts are commercial enterprises, I doubt we'll see that level of policing in Europe, so that leaves certain beginner slopes needing more protection. This means either concentrating all the resources of the ski cops onto these runs (perhaps the best idea) or having limits on some of these runs.

I wouldn't advocate putting speed limits on all blue runs - maybe half or so - since I agree they're very useful for us to practice technique.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

One of the reasons why this forum is so good is that it helps newbies find out what ever they need for their first or perhaps second trip and beyond. On my first trip, to a very small resort in Slovenia, the pistes were so empty that I was not put off. On my second trip, to Andora, Arinsal I think it was), the pistes were full of people seemingly trying to nock others into oblivion. It was all I could do to pursuade my wife to continue. The ski instructor had to scream at a few skiers, but to no avail. Although we dont want the draconian measures of overall controls, maybe, as Masopa says, the greens and blues, particularly where the beginners and very early intermediates go, should be patroled.

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Anything that reduced the number of injuries caused by the reckless behaviour of inconsiderate people is worth trying out.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Hear hear. Only problem is, you're never going to prevent people being reckless - just reduce the severity of the accidents they cause.

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In the car something tells us how fast we are going - we don't have that in skiing.

If there was no risk or danger in skiing would it be that much fun? Would a fairground ride be fun if it went slow? There still needs to be areas where people can push their comfort limit a little, or at least ski fast to the limits of their ability. It should be made clear that these areas are advanced and skiers/boaders should stop at the side of the piste not in the middle. Maybe even make a 'slow lane' at the side of some pistes for learners who are trying to deal with steep pistes but not at the speeds expert skiers can handle.

Having said that I once saw a very young child (ca 3-4 years old) who had been hit getting carried onto a helicopter (it was a busy blue run back to the main lift). The child wasn't moving, the mother was hysterical the father was in shock. It was very sad to see - there needs to be some sort of protection for those who are at an increased risk.

So I would vote for partial policing of busy learner slopes, it will be interesting to see how they deal with The run down from here http://www.mooserwirt.com/_flash/start.htm

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I think the majority view here is that no one would object to a few piste patrollers on the easy beginner runs but that on the fast runs we should be left to our own devices, however what about a patroller on the fast runs to pull the out of control beginners off and send them back to the easy runs till they've learnt better control ?

Thinking about the final part of the blue run back to Wengen here, the last section before the village is a narrow bottleneck which can also get very icy and it is not unusual for skier to fall, the problem is that both sides are fenced in meaning you cannot get off the piste, all it then takes is for a fast skier to shoot down the run and you have a potential major accident, a patrol here, or even a couple of video cameras and a warning light would be great, it wouldn't need to be all day just arround lunchtime when the ski school comes back and late afternoon when everyone is returning to the village.

After all it is free

DB, it sounds like we're pretty much agreeing then. Incidentally, the speedo is of relatively little use in telling us whether we're driving at an appropriate or safe speed. It's about teaching drivers what is appropriate/safe plus experience. Just like skiing. Which goes back to the point that skiers & boarders should be taught piste etiquette.

I find it amazing that so many people ski without being aware there is even such a thing as "piste etiquette"! You'd find very few - if any - people going onto a golf course without knowledge of golf etiquette, and if they did, they'd soon be taught or removed! Why doesn't this happen on the slopes - is it just a culture thing?

I don't have any kids, but I'm already worried for other people on the slopes when they're beginners. I dread to think how paranoid I'll become when (if?) I get married and become a father!!

I agree with ssh's "what's slow?" point. I was in Kicking Horse for a day and skied through a few go slow areas on the way to the lift and really wondered whether my slow was slow enough. I went for "going quite a bit faster than the average beginner, but clearly not going flat out", tried to look responsible, and hoped for the best...

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David Steven, I guess it's up to the discretion of the ski cop. In the same way, if you're driving along a motorway at 80mph, not tailgating and basically driving carefully and sensibly, you're probably less likely to get pulled over by plod than someone driving 5mph slower, but driving irresponsibly.

Slow isn't just defined by the speed at which you're travelling, it's also the manner in which you travel. A skier skiing fast, short-radius turns, keeping to a relatively narrow channel may well be totally acceptable, whereas the slower, but erratic skier who's skiing, nearling falling over and basically totally out-of-control should be pulled over.

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Should Resorts Have Ski Cops?

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