Poster: A snowHead
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With transceivers what exactly does probing achieve?
Would it not be better digging once the transceiver has been localised to the minimum distance?
Did several sessions of transceiver training last week with both analogue and digital transceivers and both localised to 20 cm and were accurate with depth.
Can see a case for probing if a) victim not wearing transceiver or b) if thought that transceiver has been ripped off.
In case of b, then victim probably will have suffered major life threatening trauma anyway and already be dead.
Looking forward to reading the views.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Probing gives you absolute confirmation that you are digging to a victim rather than mis-reading the transceiver. It shouldn't add much more time to the process if your transceiver (and how you use it) is accurate, but it means you are confident of not having to dig what might be more than a ton of snow to reach the victim. If you're digging just 50cm to one side of the victim that's going to lead to a lot more work, and crucially a lot more time. When you have found the victim with your probe leave it in the snow and you have a marker to dig to (you don't dig straight down, you dig in at an angle from down slope).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@colinstone, it's my experience (through many, many sessions of transceiver training as both a mountain leader and snowboard instructor) that transceiver alone will rarely localise a victim that accurately when the burial depth is significant (1m+). The probe is necessary to give you a "direct hit" and therefore massively reduce the amount of shovelling required. Even being 50cm off could result in having to move an extra 500kg of snow or more.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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1) means you don't 'lose' the victim and have to keep searching again
2) means you know the depth of the victim so you know where to start digging. If you don't understand this then look up effective digging.
3) positive surface indication of victim location so that others can keep away
4) victim knows you're there!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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my dive training always instilled in me the need for built in redundancy, so take a dive computer AND a dive watch (and using the tables prior to the dive) in case the dive computer fails, a main regulator and a spare regulator in case the regulator fails, a bail out cylinder if I'm doing a deep dive and I need more air during the decompression stop, checking my buddies spare regulator works in case my air cylinder fails, etc.
Its a universal truth, if something can go wrong it will go wrong, I've even seen people up in the mountains completely lost when the batteries failed on their hand held GPS map and they didn't have the back up of a paper map and compass.
So if there was an avalanche and you lost or broke your transceiver or you had forgotten to change the batteries or your mate had forgotten to turn his unit on, at least you would have a probe to help you, and its not that big so maybe its better to carry it and put up with the additional weight, than need it and not have it?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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They're pretty useful for pits as well. Bit of cord and two probes makes it very easy to do most of the work to isolate a block. You can also use them to find the edges of cliffs with cornices safely and use them as a probe for crevasses in glaciated terrain.
Also in a multiple burial situation where you can only realistically dig one person out at a time they act as perfect markers.
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Rescue dogs can sniff the holes......
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Have you ever done transceiver training? Fine localisation with transceiver is not that easy. Probes are absolutely invaluable. Moreover if I recall correctly they have been shown to significantly reduce time taken to find a victim.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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When training it's common to search for another transceiver, for this the probe is redundant.
However.
For real you are looking for a body usually a friend, hopefully he is wearing a transceiver, hopefully it's switched on! Even if it is on quality probing when close will speed the rescue.
One of the real shortcomings of transceiver training is it's often for plastic bags just under the snow and doesn't equip you for the probing and digging the quality of which can mean life or death.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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jbob wrote: |
... hopefully he is wearing a transceiver, hopefully it's switched on! ... |
or someone could do a transceiver check every day.
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But on the OP - as transceivers get more accurate, one could ask if there will come a point where poking people in the eye with a probe becomes redundant. You'd need accurate 3 dimensional location, and then you'd need a 3D location indicator. So if you have the transceiver horizontal above that 30 degree slope, it needs to tell you you're in the right place on the x-y axis and also how deep the burial is. I don't see why that could not be done, but even then, once you've dug from below a pit big enough to get your mate out, you can no longer hold the transceiver there. You could maybe get away with re-checking with your transceiver every now and then, but maybe a probe marking the spot would be easier.
I'd say that the utility of the transceiver has gone up and that of the probe down a bit, but I think it'll be a while until probes are done. I'm not sure about the electronic probe - I don't really get what you're trying to do there, and it's more complexity...
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Hate to be so simplistic but I'd also add the argument of "why not use a probe?"
Probe weighs less than a bottle of water so for all except the super competitive ski tourers it's a fairly irrelevant weight. It's a small package that takes way less space than your shovel, so that shouldn't be too much an issue either. But it could save a friend's life. I'm happy with a fraction extra size and weight if it's going to make it quicker and easier to find somebody. It's not like I'm being asked to cart a jackhammer around.
Also psychologically I think as a victim it must be nice to be hit by the avalanche probe and know you've been found. That's a justification in itself.
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You know it makes sense.
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dp wrote: |
Hate to be so simplistic but I'd also add the argument of "why not use a probe?"
Probe weighs less than a bottle of water so for all except the super competitive ski tourers it's a fairly irrelevant weight. It's a small package that takes way less space than your shovel, so that shouldn't be too much an issue either. But it could save a friend's life. I'm happy with a fraction extra size and weight if it's going to make it quicker and easier to find somebody. It's not like I'm being asked to cart a jackhammer around.
Also psychologically I think as a victim it must be nice to be hit by the avalanche probe and know you've been found. That's a justification in itself. |
^ This
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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first recommendation anyone on this forum - entitled off-piste
take an avalanche awareness course or two AND get familiar with actually using your kit (tranceiver, probe and shovel) and YES you DO need them all.
otherwise stay on piste
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Poster: A snowHead
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I guess you didn't read the OP, or you'd know that the reason for the question was that it hadn't been explained on those courses *why* you actually need a probe.
Is entitled off piste superior to the ordinary stuff?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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wait not explained in a course?
Who ran a course without explaining this?
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