 Poster: A snowHead
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It's a guide thing mostly, some people feel if you've a rope around the chest, rucksack etc. The thinking is that there's some room for personal preference as long as it's secured. Maybe it's Outdoor Research that makes your trousers? If you've a reason to do - crack on 
IIRC, google for Martin Volken - sure he's written about it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ise wrote: |
| The real problem is you're looking for simple rules "if A then do B" and so on. That's not likely to really reflect the range of situations that may occur in the real world. |
Your own statement was fairly binary, hence why I asked the question. What I really want to know is what things I absolutely, categorically should not be doing. e.g I should move where I currently keep my phone when off piste.
@davidof, I assumed it was obvious that any situation where discussing phones that it would only be if you were in an area with signal. Although from my experiences the phone signal around the mountain is generally better than I get in Devon.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| SnoodlesMcFlude wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| The real problem is you're looking for simple rules "if A then do B" and so on. That's not likely to really reflect the range of situations that may occur in the real world. |
Your own statement was fairly binary, hence why I asked the question. What I really want to know is what things I absolutely, categorically should not be doing. e.g I should move where I currently keep my phone when off piste.
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It's probably worth re-reading the Manuel Genswein advice above. I think where you ought to place your mobile is covered there and has been reiterated by a few of the guys here. Those rules, 20cm for send or 50cm for search are binary for the reason that it's a matter of some physics. Good questions to ask though!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I have some Black Diamond touring pants with a harness built into a specially designed reinforced trouser pocket to take a small transceiver, works really well and is nigh on 50cm from my phone in chest pocket, but that's not the real reason I bought the pants though in hindsight might be a good reason as well 
I like it in my trouser pocket as over many a year I've seen people do their ribs in when falling with a transceiver in a chest harness!!
Red Alert here currently 5/5 be interesting to see what's open tomorrow!!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Weathercam, I broke a rib falling on my transceiver and keep it in my pocket until I ditched my BCA and got a pulse which has a really nice holster.
Lots to think about from this thread, thanks all.
We’re on 5/5 tomorrow in Aosta so swimming again. The closest I’ve ever seen to this is the time I was in St Anton when Galtur happened, 1999 I think.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@davidof, or others based in France, there was a really good video recently on dealing with an avalnche situation. It was all in rench but, I think, popped up on my social media feed. Annoyingly, I can't find it again. I assumed it was an ENSa video but it's not.
If anyone could help, I'd like to see it again and I think it was a good basic "how to approach the incident" methodology.
Having been involved in one avalanche search (non-fatal, only partial burial) and "emergency situations" in normal life, I have come to the conclusion that:
1) Avalanche scenarios are very stressful, tiring and full-on. Keeping it together, being fit enough (moving over avalanche terrain is very tiring) and working effectively will be very hard, especially if the person in the avalanche is a friend/close to you.
2) I'm not sure I'd be as effective as I'd like to think I would be. In the "normal life" scenario, I'd managed to get the casualty to safety and started doing the right things but the next person to come and help was a nurse and her ability to take charge and get s**t done was mind blowing. It turns out that the odd first aid course donkey's years ago and reading books/stuff on the internet isn't anywhere near enough compared to regular practice!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@ise,
That's the one, thanks!
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Duplicate post, sorry
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 9-01-18 10:37; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@ise, I’ll stick my head above the parapet.
I think of dr abc, where d is danger, r response, a for airway, b breathing, c for cardiac.
So d r a and b seemed ok. C seemed iffy, I don’t see a pulse check and the compressions were weedy, maybe because they were doing it to a real person. Side note the extraction of the first victim was rough, if there had been a back injury it could have made it worse.
The rescue breathes they were using I think is only recommended for children or drownings, I guess swallowing snow might be regarded as a drowning.
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| SnoodlesMcFlude wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| The real problem is you're looking for simple rules "if A then do B" and so on. That's not likely to really reflect the range of situations that may occur in the real world. |
Your own statement was fairly binary, hence why I asked the question. What I really want to know is what things I absolutely, categorically should not be doing. e.g I should move where I currently keep my phone when off piste.
@davidof, I assumed it was obvious that any situation where discussing phones that it would only be if you were in an area with signal. Although from my experiences the phone signal around the mountain is generally better than I get in Devon. |
Okay, easy one. Transceiver in a harness under a bit of clothing, e.g. Jacket.
Phone not in jacket and as far away as possible.
Mine is in a trouser pocket made for a phone above my knee. Norrona lofoten.
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You know it makes sense.
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| jbob wrote: |
@ise, I’ll stick my head above the parapet.
I think of dr abc, where d is danger, r response, a for airway, b breathing, c for cardiac.
So d r a and b seemed ok. C seemed iffy, I don’t see a pulse check and the compressions were weedy, maybe because they were doing it to a real person. |
Great answer. DR ABC and ABCDE are really only mnemonics, "C" gets variously taught as CIRCULATION or CPR (in, if not BREATHING then commence CPR).
| jbob wrote: |
| Side note the extraction of the first victim was rough, if there had been a back injury it could have made it worse. |
For any first aid, the rule would be to treat the most serious life-threatening condition which in this case is that they're non-responsive and not breathing. They need to be extracted enough to give compressions so a spinal injury is a secondary concern.
| jbob wrote: |
| The rescue breathes they were using I think is only recommended for children or drownings, I guess swallowing snow might be regarded as a drowning. |
That's the one, at around 4 minutes. To unpick that:
- the CPR ratio is 30:2, this is what a normal first aider should do, someone that’s had basic CPR/BLS training.
- the ERC (European Resuscitation Council ) view is that for first aiders with additional training, for children and drowning victims, that 5 initial breathes should be given
- why? because sudden cardiac arrest (SCA) in adults is commonly due to Ischemic heart disease, in that case they’re quite well oxygenated. While for kids, there’s a variety of other reasons that the heart may stop which includes respiratory arrest. Drowning is similar of course.
- A high proportion of avalanche deaths are asphyxia, in this case their assumption must be that the victim has suffered an asphyxial cardiac arrest, in which case they need oxygen.
I don’t think that “normal” first aid in France differs much from ERC guidelines (it actually does in Switzerland) so they’re using a special protocol there. CPR is a two-part process, Expired Air Resuscitation (EAR) or expired air ventilation (EAV) and the compression part. Compression-only CPR is certainly not appropiate in this context. I'll bet few skiers carry a CPR mask
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@ise, interesting point about CPR mask.
I used to work with someone that had to administer CPR on a building site. He said that the chap was vomiting but there wasn’t time to get the first aid box so he just wiped the vomit away and started the breaths. I guess when the emergency happens you throw away a certain amount of the training and concentrate on the key aspects. He continued until the paramedics arrived and the bloke survived. My colleague said the weirdest thing was that the bloke came back to the site but never said thank you!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Has anyone tried using a transceiver while also wearing a satellite tracker such as an InReach or Spot?
The advantage of the tracker is you could just press the big red panic button and then get on with the transceiver search, the disadvantage I'd imagine is it's something else to interfere with your transceiver.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@SnoodlesMcFlude, I agree, people frequently do jump straight into the action rather than taking the necessary steps to protect themselves.
The face masks came about because there's more than 1 police officer and paramedic who are living with HIV or Hep B because they gave unprotected CPR to an infected person. You have to decide whether you really want to save this random stranger that badly that you'll risk a lifelong condition that will eventually kill you.
There is a point there that extends beyond CPR really too. When you find any casualty you first need to make sure you're safe - you can't help them if you die too. People frequently forget to go through the most basic of safety checks when beginning first aid and go on to become the victim. No shortage of people who've seen somebody hit by a car, run into the road to assist and you guessed it - been mown down themselves.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@dp, I know why they exist and why you’d want to use them. And obviously in the story I mentioned the guy I knew had been working on the same site as the other chap for a while, so he wasn’t a total stranger.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@SnoodlesMcFlude, oh sure I wasn't saying you didn't - I just meant that people could be better at protecting themselves before trying to save others and that the tendency to rush straight in can sometimes be detrimental to both the casualty and the assistance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| dp wrote: |
The face masks came about because there's more than 1 police officer and paramedic who are living with HIV or Hep B because they gave unprotected CPR to an infected person. You have to decide whether you really want to save this random stranger that badly that you'll risk a lifelong condition that will eventually kill you.
There is a point there that extends beyond CPR really too. When you find any casualty you first need to make sure you're safe - you can't help them if you die too. People frequently forget to go through the most basic of safety checks when beginning first aid and go on to become the victim. No shortage of people who've seen somebody hit by a car, run into the road to assist and you guessed it - been mown down themselves. |
This is partly why compression-only CPR (like Vinnie Jones) has been pushed. Members of the public are deterred from giving CPR because of their concerns. For someone that's had the "average" cardiac arrest in the workplace for example, then compression-only is better than nothing. It's not recommended by ERC because it's not effective in some cases, most likely that includes avalanches because of the issue with asphyxia.
A mask or face shield is simple, masks are handly because they're effective, shields are just simple sheets of plastic with a membrane of some sort and cost a few pence each. A shield and a pair of gloves can be on a keyring.
These are certainly the things that need considering as well as the search skills with transceivers and digging etc.
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