 Poster: A snowHead
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Saying all of the above we seem to have 6 day 3v passes for £253 with our accommodation in Les menuires I think it’s incredible value compared to cost of a session in an indoor fridge in uk. Even in Tignes a 6 day pass is 396 euros (and you get an added day free). Skiing isn’t cheap but if you look at the cost per day and the infastructure behind it and costs to maintain, difficult to complain too much
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The usual way is for a picture to be taken when the ticket is first used for weekly passes etc. Season ticket pics are usually taken upon purchase, from an archive if you have an existing ticket or first use. Many resorts do offer parent passes that can be used by either parent so I guess they take more than one picture, I think where I am both parents have to be present when purchasing for pictures to be taken. I have seen parents try to abuse this many times by passing the ticket to the second parent after going through the turnstile, unfortunately for them the system recognises the second attempt as impossible within the time constraints of the lift duration. Some have been known to fail the attitude test and have the card cancelled, some have also been reported to the police for fraud.
Running costs for most resorts has exploded in the last 20 years with many surface lifts being replaced by chairs and even glaciers having snowmaking to ensure they can run (even right at the top of the likes of Hintertux).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have to say I'm getting twitchy about the cost for St Foy at Easter. There's usually a "kids for free with an adult" pass, but there's nothing advertised yet.
I get that there's a cost to skiing, but without that deal, SF really starts to look bad value for what you get on that pass.
Committed to this year, but would most likely jump back to Saalbach in the future - lots of bang for your buck.
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| Quote: |
| Skiing isn’t cheap but if you look at the cost per day and the infastructure behind it and costs to maintain, difficult to complain too much |
I understand all that, but ski pass costs seem to have risen massively in the last few years. It just feels like lift ticket costs are becoming prohibitive and starting to price people (especially families at peak times) out of going skiing. Despite a fair few trips there, I certainly feel like that is the case for North America.
I remember paying £55 for a 6 day pass for Les Deux Alpes in the late 1980s. According to the internet that would equate to about £169 today, allowing for inflation. That's in comparison to the current actual cost of around £244 for a 6 day LDA pass. So prices have increased well above inflation... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just look at it like you would the grocery store. Have prices not really jumped there recently? Would you actually expect 1L of milk to cost 1/4 the price of 4L of milk, or would you expect a discount for buying in bulk?
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As well as maximising revenue the operators want stable and early revenue. That’s pushed the US to the model where they sell more annual passes which have become an increasingly good deal, but day rates have gone mental. I’m sure the same innovation will come to Europe in time. All the ideas about more flexible types of ticket put the operator at the mercy of the weather/conditions which is the opposite of what they’re trying to achieve.
The thing I really don’t want to see though is Disney-style express passes where you can jump the queue at lifts. It sort of already exists through the ski school line, but it wouldn’t take much to just make it another class of lift ticket.
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| hold_my_biere wrote: |
| That’s pushed the US to the model where they sell more annual passes which have become an increasingly good deal, but day rates have gone mental. I’m sure the same innovation will come to Europe in time. |
Not sure I'd have used the term "innovation" to describe the US business model, innovation normally implies an improvement. I don't like the US model and much prefer the current more affordable day ticket prices in Europe, so I'd have used "regression" 
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@mountainaddict, a lot of the difference between your two figures can probably be accounted for due to the relative weakening of the £ relative to the Franc/Euro
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Different business models and exchange rates. Thanks, these are the sort of hidden factors I was looking for.
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
I remember paying £55 for a 6 day pass for Les Deux Alpes in the late 1980s. According to the internet that would equate to about £169 today, allowing for inflation. That's in comparison to the current actual cost of around £244 for a 6 day LDA pass. So prices have increased well above inflation... |
Have they not replaced lifts with more modern equipment, I'm sure replacing an old fixed grip chair with a 4 man detachable chair is many times higher than inflation increases even taking into account the increased capacity. Do they make snow anywhere? I'm pretty sure they didn't in the 80's. The piste prep will also have considerably improved with very expensive winch cat equipment replacing the old basic machines again at a way above inflation cost.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@mountainaddict, the quality and extent of lift systems has also increased way above inflation. The innovation in the 80s was a 3 man chair. Slow. Now, at least in Austria, it’s virtually all fast chairs and much shorter queues.
Back is the 80s one run in Kitz had snow making. Now resorts are almost totally covered
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
But I'm a bit surprised that so many people are seemingly happy to shrug and not so much as bat an eyelid as prices continue to rocket
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They are reflecting the basic principle of Stoicism that there's no point fretting about stuff you can't control.
I don't entirely go along with your historical analysis. To me, lift passes have always been really expensive. The first time we had a family ski holiday I had to buy passes for two adults and three kids, the first morning. That was in St Oswald in Austria, a tiny resort with a handful of runs (now part of a wider area). I can still remember the sinking feeling as I handed over my credit card.......
For British families ski holidays have only ever been affordable for the fortunate few - and for us they were always the only expensive holidays in the year. Costs kept as low as possible by taking kids out of school in those cheap early January weeks! Not an option any more.
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You know it makes sense.
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| snowyc wrote: |
| Sneachta2013 wrote: |
| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| Sneachta2013 wrote: |
| …another option would be to try and get someone with a season pass to ‘loan’ it to you for a reduced rate during a week they are not skiing. It’s probably not legal and would take a bit of luck to find a local who would be willing to ‘risk it’ but could be very fruitful….? |
Otherwise known as stealing. Which raises the cost for the rest of us. Brilliant idea. Karma awaits. |
Yeah, Karma awaits, but I'm not superstitious and I was speaking very hypothetically and the probability of anyone anyone being successful with what I outlined is very slim and even less likely that it would reach a scale to have any impact on ski lift costs so I think you can 'sleep easily' on this matter. |
It's not easy, plenty of places uses cameras and I saw people being randomly checked in France, I guess they were on season passes. We are probably not that far away from more intelligent cameras checking who uses the passes.
I was also thinking about buying longer passes and reselling it later but not sure how many resorts forbids it. e.g. in kronplatz the pass is named so when I lost it i could easily get it back for a small fee (5-10e) without having a receipt. |
In Morzine and Avoriaz all the entry points/gondolas have a screen that pops the face up every time a season pass goes through (look up and left at both Prodains and Super Morzine), and there are regularly lifties with iPads on random lifts checking as well. I keep my pass in a sleeve pocket on a mid-layer and had to take my jacket off to get it out when he missed my mate’s son (who was in front of me) and thought it was me using his pass.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@mountainaddict, Soaring energy costs, some recovery of Covid losses on top of more and more modern fast lifts. Plus almost resort wide snow making. Much of the infrastructure, lifts, snowmaking, reservoirs will have been financed - finance costs are not as cheap as they were
Ischgl and Saalbach for example have at least one new fast chair or gondola a year. Smaller resorts like Obergurgl even manage one every two or three years.
When did you last have to queue up the mountain for more than about 5 minutes? Back in the 80s, most of the time on the slopes was spent in queues, often for T bars or slow chairs (a couple of those slow chairs are still in Soll... great for a nostalgia trip, rubbish for getting you up the mountain quickly).
It's expensive, yes, but still reasonable value for what you get especially if you ski for a good number of hours each day at reasonable speeds
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Poster: A snowHead
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I’d suggest the growth of the regional/ seasonal tickets is to attract day/weekend trippers from nearby rather than people doing seasons? 20 days a year if you lived within 2 hours? Lift operator and customer getting a good deal?
Currency is a big factor for anyone skiing for many years(pre 2008) Less of an issue if you are earning euros. Any Irish people have a view?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I earn euros, didn’t think about XE in Europe but I believe it’s a reason why I preferred Canada to USA, notably cheaper. And I remember meeting Americans in Canada who said they were there as the savings more than covered the plane tickets.
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It's a very daft assessment of value - cost per km of available slope. I won't be skiing all 1200km of slope on the Dolomite pass in March - physically impossible in 6 days.
A better assessment would bring in % of fast lifts, lift % usage (which would give an indication of possible queues), % of slopes regularly open etc with some assessment of amount of skiing available
The Andorra pass may in reality be better value. And Solden pass includes Obergurgl, a very quick bus ride away
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| buchanan101 wrote: |
It's a very daft assessment of value - cost per km of available slope. I won't be skiing all 1200km of slope on the Dolomite pass in March - physically impossible in 6 days.
A better assessment would bring in % of fast lifts, lift % usage (which would give an indication of possible queues), % of slopes regularly open etc with some assessment of amount of skiing available
The Andorra pass may in reality be better value. And Solden pass includes Obergurgl, a very quick bus ride away |
Thanks
Can't fault his math, but that was my take too.
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Also my thoughts, often those mega resorts are quite spread out with not easy access to some parts, considering most of us will stay in a hotel at one corner.
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Posts on Snowheads illustrate how many people value having kms of piste "to go at" and don't want to ski the same run twice if they can help it. Seems daft to me, but I guess the "kms per £" approach will appeal to some.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Posts on Snowheads illustrate how many people value having kms of piste "to go at" and don't want to ski the same run twice if they can help it. Seems daft to me, but I guess the "kms per £" approach will appeal to some. |
Yes i like a big area... (but will ski runs more than once)...but even then, assessing a 1200km 6 day lift pass as good value *solely* on €/km is just nuts
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yes, it is indeed "nuts". I would pay more for a lift pass if steps were taken to limit sales and therefore avoid hideous overcrowding (only after I'd bought mine, of course......). It used to annoy me, when snow in Les Saisies was the best for miles around, to see ranks of coaches which had bussed skiers in from as far afield as Flaine. Cluttering up "my" slopes (for which I always had a super value bought-in-advance season pass )
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Like everything value for money is always subjective - fast lifts, ski area, good infrastructure, snow making, snow sure etc - all play a part in deciding where we want to go and what we're willing to pay for a lift pass.
Skiing the same run more than once is fine (in fact it's inevitable) - but having a variety of itineraries you can ski during the week is also appealing, so I get why they chose km's over more subjective factors, even if it is a little short sighted. Maybe they should factor in how many km's people ski on average during a week i.e if the average skier ski's 200kms per week, then use £/km up to that point, as any km's over that won't be skied anyway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Handy Turnip wrote: |
Like everything value for money is always subjective - fast lifts, ski area, good infrastructure, snow making, snow sure etc - all play a part in deciding where we want to go and what we're willing to pay for a lift pass.
Skiing the same run more than once is fine (in fact it's inevitable) - but having a variety of itineraries you can ski during the week is also appealing, so I get why they chose km's over more subjective factors, even if it is a little short sighted. Maybe they should factor in how many km's people ski on average during a week i.e if the average skier ski's 200kms per week, then use £/km up to that point, as any km's over that won't be skied anyway. |
I guess it indicates variety of choice, so is a factor, but the other factors you mention are just as important (lift ultisation rate also indicates queue possibility)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rambotion wrote: |
| @Trickydicky, what you want is for everyone to be charged per vertical m that they ski. With smart gates it would be possible to do this but it wouldn't make for a relaxing holiday knowing that lift was another lift was another 5 euros. What would happen is people would call it a day if the visibility wasn't perfect or the snow wasn't quite to their liking or they were feeling a bit tired. I might even tour more. All of this would lose the lift companies money without reducing their operating costs very much. Hence why they don't want to do this |
I am sure that the lift companies ere happily collating all of the date that the electronic gates give them around various variables etc:
1) peak periods
2) skiers in morning vs skiers in afternoons
3) volume of people using each lift
4) volume of people skiing in bad weather/good weather/good snow/bad snow
You could cut the data so many different ways and price off this accordingly. I suspect that they will at some point do this as a means of maximising revenues. I can also see them use this as a means of justifying new infrastructure or even removing underused infrastructure.
Its all data!
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Separate question, but related.
How many kms does the average holiday skier ski per day do you think?
If it's fall line skiing not traveling on paths to get to the next lift or valley then I think 30km is a big day for most.
Look forward to hearing other people's thoughts / experiences.
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You know it makes sense.
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Looking back at Ski Tracks our group averages around 35 km per day (maybe a bit more), not sure if that's typical of the average skier as all of us are pretty keen to get out as early as possible and maximise our time on the slopes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
Separate question, but related.
How many kms does the average holiday skier ski per day do you think?
If it's fall line skiing not traveling on paths to get to the next lift or valley then I think 30km is a big day for most.
Look forward to hearing other people's thoughts / experiences. |
Easy - Skitracks tells me; last 3 holidays in Obergurgl/Solden, Ellmau and Sella Ronda I tracked between 45km and 65km. Much of SR is easy, but very little is on tracks, likewise Ellmau. Bit more in Obergurgl.
These are distances skied, and the tracks show giant slalom sized turns so actually down the fall line is about 70% to 80% of that
30km is a quietish day for me on your metric, 40km to 50km typical, but it's probably more km that most people (first lift, few stops)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| buchanan101 wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
Separate question, but related.
How many kms does the average holiday skier ski per day do you think?
If it's fall line skiing not traveling on paths to get to the next lift or valley then I think 30km is a big day for most.
Look forward to hearing other people's thoughts / experiences. |
Easy - Skitracks tells me; last 3 holidays in Obergurgl/Solden, Ellmau and Sella Ronda I tracked between 45km and 65km. Much of SR is easy, but very little is on tracks, likewise Ellmau. Bit more in Obergurgl.
These are distances skied, and the tracks show giant slalom sized turns so actually down the fall line is about 70% to 80% of that
30km is a quietish day for me on your metric, 40km to 50km typical, but it's probably more km that most people (first lift, few stops) |
Cheers
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Paperback Writer wrote: |
| Looking back at Ski Tracks our group averages around 35 km per day (maybe a bit more), not sure if that's typical of the average skier as all of us are pretty keen to get out as early as possible and maximise our time on the slopes. |
Thanks very much
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm a big fan of the special weeks in Ski Amade. Taken advantage of Ladies Week (bring a friend) in mid March the last two years to get a free adult lift pass. My son as under 16 has also skiied for free. Just need to find participating accommodation.
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@Mike Pow, low 30's up to low 50's for us. But some of the variance would be accounted for how much was off piste. If on piste it would be minimum 40 I reckon. That's 6.5 to 7.5 skiing with a picnic lunch (so 30-45 minutes).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Layne wrote: |
| @Mike Pow, low 30's up to low 50's for us. But some of the variance would be accounted for how much was off piste. If on piste it would be minimum 40 I reckon. That's 6.5 to 7.5 skiing with a picnic lunch (so 30-45 minutes). |
Much appreciated
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The question of turn shape is interesting. Some years ago I skied in Les Contamines with my son and a young French guy who had no money and had borrowed huge long skis and ancient boots. His style was mincing French and he squizzled down the middle of the piste. My son did huge carved turns. They reached the bottom at the same time (they were both good, but not competitive, and I came quietly down well behind them both). At the end of the day my son had skied a lot more miles, at a higher speed. The only time my son clearly scored was on moguls, where the French guy's skis were just too long! He was a lovely guy. He and girl friend were staying with me and as he lived in Burgundy he had bought me a bottle of Gevrey Chambertin. Fortunately I knew that was expensive. But I didn't let on initially and suggested I make us all some vin chaud......
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Not a huge base set for me to look at, as I've only done one European ski trip. But on a 30 day trip to France last year, we skied a low of 49km, to a high of 113km per day. The average came out to 74km/day.
Having said that, I'm not sure we would qualify as "average ski tourists". We live in Banff, and ski many more days per winter than the average skier I think. Then again, we were tourists on that trip, so if you're looking to average out what people do on a ski trip...
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@Mike Pow, this is interesting as I've no idea about km because (if we track anything) we track vertical over here, not distance. I don't recall seeing distance specs like for the Alps. Regardless of locale, the lift system has a lot to do with what all of us rack up. Years ago Jackson Hole would give you a lapel pin if you skied 100,000 vertical feet in a week. We did it in four days (must've been cruising) and they sort of didn't believe us. Now, with high speed lifts, you can do 10,000 vert in an hour if you want. Distance measurement might be more meaningful in the Alps, because the interconnectedness of the lift systems makes long distances possible, which also affords the chance at big numbers to get attention.
I evaluate where I want to go with a hard look at the lift system, so that if Mother Nature deals us cruising and nothing else, we can still get that done properly. I seek high speed lifts, ideally chairs, with big vert. If they have that, the length sort of takes care of itself, doesn't it?
That guy who measures piste length seems to have carved out a decent little niche for himself, though I've always thought it was mostly marketing.
All that said, for me it is about quality not quantity anyway.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Scooter in Seattle, Skitracks also records vertical - typically did 9,000m to 12,000m a day (30,000ft to 40,000ft). Not up to your 10,000ft/hr, but daily skiing down Everest...
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FAQ
I reckon some daily prices at places like Tignes and Hintertux will be not be far short of having doubled over 10-12 years, with price increases accelerating in the past 5 years in particular.
