 Poster: A snowHead
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@Kramer,
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I think that people tend to become a bit too risk averse as they get older. People around them also try to protect them which makes it worse. Use it or lose it baby.
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Indeed. Hence why I welcome being pushed out of my comfort zone. Upto a point. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This year, mountain biking off the back of La Plagne, down to Bozel a guy in our group came off really badly on a tricky technical section that the guide had stopped and warned us about. It's really steep round there too, so he bounced quite a way down into the trees and bushes. He didn't have any permanent injuries, but he was lucky.
That night at dinner, he told us that he'd not done much mountain biking, but he'd been getting frustrated with himself for not being better (the rest of us had been riding for years, if not decades) and was fed up of "wussing out" on bits.
The bit he fell off on, it was about the 5th or 6th time that I've been down there, and it was the first time that I'd felt confident enough to ride it.
There's nothing wrong with opting out of something that you don't like the look of.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
@Kramer,
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I think that people tend to become a bit too risk averse as they get older. People around them also try to protect them which makes it worse. Use it or lose it baby.
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Indeed. Hence why I welcome being pushed out of my comfort zone. Upto a point. |
Yeah, there's gently pushing the limits of your comfort zone, and then there's doing something silly. See my post above. I'm firmly in the first camp, gentle sustained progress can take you a hell of a long way.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@195062, I've 'done' (not skied in the normal sense of the word) the Tunnel once. Never again.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Hurtle some years ago I
Reached the end of the tunnel to be overtaken by a large Italian with family
At that time there was no ledge or platform just the bump field 
Said large Italian set off chatting loudly to kids,one turn in he stumbled and lost a ski!
I thought to myself this should be entertaining to watch!
And it was as he proceeded to ski down on one ski doing pretty good short turns!!
Made my efforts rather insignificant in comparison!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@195062, But in a way that's what I'm inferring in terms of how these 'marquee resort runs' are marketed - encouraging the average punter to give it a try because its there / its easy to access / they can. This encouragement is amplified when you're younger as the balance between seeking real progression (by taking risks) and peer pressure to gain fame and notoriety is a fine line; obviously its still down to the individual to make their own choices but sometimes as humans we do need a little help . . .
@Kramer with regards 'risk management' have you seen the Netflix documentary Wingmen on Wing Suit Skydiving / Base jumping? Risk taking personified; fascinating and disturbing viewing at the same time and illustrates what you are saying . . .however more interesting is the conclusion they all inevitably come to
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 12-02-24 21:42; edited 1 time in total
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I've stood at the top of The Wall, in season, albeit late, with no-one else nearby, no café open, no 'closed' sign/netting, no chair running beside, no lifts operating in the resort below, no advice whatsoever. As I wasn't too familiar with the valley bus timetable, nor the theoretically possible ski route to the bustop, I decided against descent. That was most disappointing.
I can understand closing The Wall due to avalanche risk, terrible weather, or lack of snow, but not due to being 'too difficult'. It varies from a slope of mashed potato you'd be hard put to hurt yourself on, to a parking lot of Volkswagen Beetles coated in six inches of ice, tilted at 50 degrees, where stopping can only ever occur fleetingly, if at all. One shouldn't attempt The Wall unless prepared for the latter, i.e. neck-breakingly difficult conditions. However, I suppose it's possible The Wall may also need to be closed if the number of helicopters likely to be needed per hour would exceed those available.
What are the stats for fatalities on The Wall that occur whilst it is 'open'?
But sure, 'closed' means 'closed'. It can only mean 'open' in the sense that 'closed' signs aren't erected at the edge of cliffs.
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| Belch wrote: |
| 'marquis' resort |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@red 27, Typo - marquee ' a featured attraction / big name recognition' 
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@Belch, Ah yes...
I thought they might do Knight skiing
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Belch, I shall look out for it.
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@red 27, 
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You know it makes sense.
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Nobody (including quite a few Snowheads) have ever made me feel bad for opting out of something. Quite the contrary. The biggest "go or no go" decision I've had to make was at the top of the quaint gondola in La Grave. Stay in that nice café then go down and meet the group at the end of the day, or go with them? I was on an "Intro to off piste" week and the weakest member of the small group had already dropped out. Which left me as the weakest member, certainly in terms of pure physical strength. I was the only woman, and the oldest by some distance. I decided to do it, and did, but I was knackered from digging myself out of holes, and was glad of a stronger and supportive member of the group behind me. The instructor missed the traverse across to the middle station of the gondola (? have I remembered that right) so we had to ski right down the bottom, through a lot of very crap old snow and trees, then climb up the other side a bit. My memory is hazy. I was glad I'd done it, relieved not to have completely messed it up, and at no point did I feel in any danger of anything except exhaustion, but neither did I feel any great feeling of achievement - I knew that I'd discovered my limits, I'd not seriously delayed the group, and I'd not been a wuss. That was good enough! Now, years later, I have heart failure with "seriously impaired left ventricular function" and could never contemplate anything like that ever again. But this afternoon I walked for an hour at a very smart pace, admittedly on the flat, nothing hurt and I was never out of breath. I watched the sun set over Chichester Harbour and saw a Marsh Harrier. At 77, that'll do me! I hope to go cruising often this summer (as opposed to going on a cruise), crewing for a 90 year old skipper and if he drops dead at the wheel I should be capable of getting us, with the boat, to safety if I have to. I am confident that even if that happens, I won't panic and will cope with whatever needs to be done. But even as a young person I could NEVER have been a mountain biker. Hurtling down rocky paths on a bike, with trees all round, would never have appealed to me and I don't see the thrill of being just one fuck up away from serious injury. Maybe being a mother of three kids and only breadwinner I am naturally risk-averse. But not pathologically so, I would argue. I have ridden a motor bike in Africa and the Caribbean - both hazardous activities - but that was to get places. Not just for the "adrenaline rush"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @195062, I've 'done' (not skied in the normal sense of the word) the Tunnel once. Never again. |
As at one point ADH was one of my go to resorts I've skied the tunnel a few times. I suspect like the wall you just have to hit it at the right time i.e., when it's had a bit of sun and the snow has softened. I took a friend down to do it who was just a steady been a few weeks skier and she was fine and enjoyed it.
I think any steepish mogul piste can be nasty when the snow is hard and you lose it. In one of first trips I saw someone rag doll down Suisse in Courchevel. That's when I became interested in how to and the importance of self arrest. Although avoiding such runs when conditions are not good is the preferred option.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Origen, fair enough, it’s not for everybody.
Most of the times when you make a mistake it’s not too bad, that’s why I wear body armour.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Belch, I’ve watched it.
So far mountain biking I’ve only had friends break bones. Not sure what I’d do if someone died.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Not sure what I’d do if someone died.
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You'd be expected to sort it out, @Kramer, obvs!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I’ve had to do that for injuries a few times.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Kramer wrote: |
@Belch, I’ve watched it.
So far mountain biking I’ve only had friends break bones. Not sure what I’d do if someone died. |
All collarbones?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| I’ve had to do that for injuries a few times. |
I should blooming well think so, you're a doctor, for heaven's sake!
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My son in law's regular mountain biking gang includes 2 GPs but he's the one who always has to mend the bikes! Though by observation he's learnt to use super glue for superficial head injuries. 
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| Layne wrote: |
As at one point ADH was one of my go to resorts I've skied the tunnel a few times. I suspect like the wall you just have to hit it at the right time |
I skied it once back when there was snow in November. Must have been in the late 90s and the lifts were running but apparently open just for some ski clubs. I've no idea why they opened the Pic Blanc but I went up with a colleague and the tunnel had been opened for people to ski down but I swear no one had skied it yet. The far side was an untouched powder field and you'd think the whole steep thing was a joke it was so easy to ski. The day was probably my best day's skiing as we didn't come across another soul and did run after run in powder as very little pisting had happened.
Since then it's largely been moguls, skied it with my son when he was about 8 or 9, of course kids at that age just ski between the moguls.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Origen, you sound like a badass. Fair play to you.
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| Snow&skifan wrote: |
| Kramer wrote: |
@Belch, I’ve watched it.
So far mountain biking I’ve only had friends break bones. Not sure what I’d do if someone died. |
All collarbones? |
Unfortunately not.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Belch wrote: |
| @195062, But in a way that's what I'm inferring in terms of how these 'marquee resort runs' are marketed - encouraging the average punter to give it a try because its there / its easy to access / they can. |
Yes, look what it says on the official website:
"Will you measure yourself against the Swiss Wall, its 37 degrees of inclination and 331 meters of difference in altitude, avoided by the groomers and sculpted by the snow conditions…? Come on, now that you’re at an altitude of more than 2150 meters, you just have to go down: the Chavanette refreshment bar is right there, at the bottom…"
https://en.portesdusoleil.com/experiences-to-live/the-swiss-wall-legendary-swiss-challenge-in-crosets/
Sounds like it is encouraging people not to "chicken out".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
@Kramer,
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I think that people tend to become a bit too risk averse as they get older. People around them also try to protect them which makes it worse. Use it or lose it baby.
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Indeed. Hence why I welcome being pushed out of my comfort zone. Upto a point. |
Not much quarter was given last week, either in terms of pace or gradient. I didn’t think it was at all necessary.
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I thought we'd established that this "just a bit closed" status wasn't a thing, and that any run that says "closed" at the top is closed, no matter how much or little netting there is? That's certainly the view of the only pisteur who has expressed an opinion.
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You know it makes sense.
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@shefmarkh, Exactly . .
"Good to know - The fastest runs on the Swiss Wall go to Dominique Perret, a legendary Swiss freerider: 39 seconds during the first edition of the Derby de Chavanette!
And an incredible 17-second run straight off the moguls . . . Your turn!"
Is this responsible marketing . . . ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| shefmarkh wrote: |
| ... Sounds like it is encouraging people not to "chicken out". |
But not encouraging them to ignore closed signs, alas, so irrelevant.
| belch wrote: |
| Is this responsible marketing . . . ? |
Is that a woke argument for "responsibility" or an anti-woke argument for censorship?
Again, they're not encouraging people to ride closed terrain, so irrelevant.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Origen wrote: |
| I thought we'd established that this "just a bit closed" status wasn't a thing, and that any run that says "closed" at the top is closed, no matter how much or little netting there is? That's certainly the view of the only pisteur who has expressed an opinion. |
Yes. I'm not even sure how this has got to a 5th page, but it is Snowheads I suppose
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@phil_w, This is a discussion so hardly irrelevant! And woke has nothing to do with it either . . .I'm not questioning the fact that the terrain was closed in this instance (and that the resort took the right level of responsibility); I'm questioning the relevance of these kind of runs in the first place based on unnecessary risk even when they're deemed open and safe to ski - the reality is they're not to the average punter and that this should perhaps be more accurately communicated rather than encouraging people to pretend they're legendary swiss freeriders . .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Belch, I dunno - you sometimes see signs warning of super extreme dangerous high mountain terrain and that just adds to the cache of having done it
@Origen, I’m not sure what your point is? I don’t think anyone’s saying ducking a rope is a good thing. However, plenty of people do it and almost all of the time nothing bad happens. It’s pretty unlucky (and tragic) that a misjudgement like that should have a death sentence
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I can understand closing The Wall due to avalanche risk, terrible weather, or lack of snow, but not due to being 'too difficult'. It varies from a slope of mashed potato you'd be hard put to hurt yourself on, to a parking lot of Volkswagen Beetles coated in six inches of ice, tilted at 50 degrees, where stopping can only ever occur fleetingly, if at all.
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I think I used almost exactly those words when I was last there 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Belch wrote: |
| @phil_w, This is a discussion so hardly irrelevant! And woke has nothing to do with it either . . .I'm not questioning the fact that the terrain was closed in this instance (and that the resort took the right level of responsibility); I'm questioning the relevance of these kind of runs in the first place based on unnecessary risk even when they're deemed open and safe to ski - the reality is they're not to the average punter and that this should perhaps be more accurately communicated rather than encouraging people to pretend they're legendary swiss freeriders . . |
Why do you question the need for these runs, they are a feature of the mountain and most of the time they are manageable by most semi competent intermediates. We are hardly talking extreme skiing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| Belch wrote: |
But this is a well marked, pisted, accessible black run with a 'proud' marketed reputation for steepness / potential danger; on this basis and when open its surely an educated or controlled risk assumption rather than a unsually overt one? |
No, whether (re my other posts) it's referred to as a black run or an itinéraire it is certainly not pisted. |
As I happen to have a PdS piste map sat next to me I can confirm it's listed as "Piste balisee non damee mais securisee, situee en Suisse" / "Marked slope, ungroomed but secure, located in Switzerland".
So depends what language you're speaking. In French it's a "piste" (slope) but isn't "damée" (groomed) while in English it isn't a "piste" (a ski run of compacted snow).
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Hi guys,
I unfortunately witnessed part of the incident whilst coming down the lift. Fortunately, I did not witness both falls however as an experienced skier I have a theory from what I saw.
As I was coming down I noticed a snowboarder about 150 meters from the beginning of the wall edging down very slowly to the right of the piste (away from the lift, where there was less moguls). The conditions were terrible, I would not wish on anyone to ski Icey moguls like that, especially being early in the morning before the conditions would turn the sheer ice into a bit more slush from the beaming sun that day. As I watched the snowboarder on the edge of his board sliding down slowly I then noticed 50 meters to the left of the first pylon a set of skis angled on a mogul facing to the left of the mountain, when I saw this I was in shock as this was very far up the piste. About 50 meters further down from their I noticed a white set of skis virtually under the lift facing down the mountain. My initial thought was the women took the skis off as they were nearly dead straight facing down the mountain however due to the degree I couldn’t see how she could have sat down and taken them off. As I saw the white skis It was still too early to see the rest of the piste down so I watched the snowboarder come down in line with my chair, after about 20 seconds this is where I noticed scattered poles and black gloves. In the distance I saw 2 people to which I noticed the women sitting up holding her right wrist. As this was still a distance away I could not see exactly how the man was positioned. I then looked to the left and noticed a piste official traversing right to miss the horrific moguls. As I was going down I could hear the women shouting what I thought was a name. The snowboarder was close to the 2 people to which he decided to position himself next to the women facing his back to the man.
By the time I was eye level to the group, the piste official was talking to the man for a response, with no response he checked the pulse, by this point I noticed a helmet further down the piste and then focused on the 5 people running up the piste asking what has happened. I shouted at them and asked if they were your friends to which a man responded yes. I told them please do not go up there! As I thought It was best that the emergency services do not need more people in the equation.
20 seconds later I was off the lift I looked back at the piste official giving CPR then within 2 minutes, 2 helicopters started hovering and descended to a safe landing spot.
I couldn’t watch anymore so I decided to ski on and evaluate what I have just seen.
So my thoughts. Firstly as mentioned the piste was closed and rightly so. The skis I saw were piste skis that looked rented. Although I can not evaluate the DIN settings I would suspect they would have been low enough for them to come off with ease. The way the women’s skis were positioned facing down the mountain indicates to me the case.
Both had a horrific and long fall. The man however lost his gloves, helmet and goggles. For him to have lost his helmet, although I would suspect done up meant he cartwheeled down to his resting position and in the process his helmet flung off. The women must have been able to control the decent possibly because of the way she fell in the first place, Skis facing down indicating the body going down head first?
From my perspective both female and male had their DIN settings too low for a hard run like the swiss wall. If their skis did not come off so easily this could have stopped such a tragedy. I am also in belief a group of 8 descended down the closed run to which 5 skiers made it to the bottom, 2 fell and the snowboarder watched whilst 2 of his friends/family members fell down the mountain.
For people reading don’t presume the skiers in your group have the same capabilities as yourself as the burden like this tragedy will haunt you for the rest of your life. Always stick to the advice of piste officials and read the terrain your skiing. If you’re in a group make sure everyone’s helmet is secure, I have always kept my helmet loose on the strap for comfort but this is a reminder of what can happen.
To the family and friends at the bottom of the mountain I hope my words to not go up were the right ones and I am sorry for your loss.
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@robdob437, welcome to snowHeads, sorry your first post had to be regarding such a tragic event you witnessed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Important point about helmets, the same goes for bike riding.
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Should pistes like the wall or tunnel (ADH) exist? I think so. I've never skied the wall but have skied the tunnel a few times and it can be type 2 fun - challenging but with a sense of accomplishment at the end. Generally I don't believe it is dangerous - no more than any other steepish pistes that get mogulled anyway. If you want to remove the wall piste there are dozens more that should go. And that seems to be going against all logic. I guess a question would be - how many deaths/injuries are there per skier run? And is that figure too high. Which brings us to related point 2...
Should they or how should they be marketed? I agree that marketing for the wall above doesn't sit right with me. The emphasise should be on having the ability and skiing it in the right conditions.
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FAQ
