 Poster: A snowHead
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| Mjit wrote: |
| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| Belch wrote: |
But this is a well marked, pisted, accessible black run with a 'proud' marketed reputation for steepness / potential danger; on this basis and when open its surely an educated or controlled risk assumption rather than a unsually overt one? |
No, whether (re my other posts) it's referred to as a black run or an itinéraire it is certainly not pisted. |
As I happen to have a PdS piste map sat next to me I can confirm it's listed as "Piste balisee non damee mais securisee, situee en Suisse" / "Marked slope, ungroomed but secure, located in Switzerland".
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I mentioned earlier ( but the thread's got so contorted I'm not surprised if you didn't see it, that on the specific Morgins-Champery piste map it's labelled as an itinéraire, turn the page over to the PdS it's as you say.
| Mjit wrote: |
So depends what language you're speaking. In French it's a "piste" (slope) but isn't "damée" (groomed) while in English it isn't a "piste" (a ski run of compacted snow). |
It's not even really a language difference, but a semantic one. Piste is used in French for multiple types of way or path and therefore can include a marked ski trail; although often mistranslated in skiing context as slope that is not at all what the word itself actually means, nor is there a general consensus in English (and other European languages that have also borrowed it from French) as to whether "Piste" implies groomed or not, but we all know of marked runs that we'd refer to as unpisted or ungroomed, so it's not reasonble to assume a general rule about that.
Semantics aside, the important thing here is that on both maps it's clear that it is a marked, patrolled and controlled trail.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 13-02-24 12:40; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This is a terrible story but the speed at which the rescuers arrived seems miraculous.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Why do you question the need for these runs, they are a feature of the mountain and most of the time they are manageable by most semi competent intermediates. We are hardly talking extreme skiing. |
Disagree with 'most of the time' and disagree with 'manageable' . . .Yes a semi competent intermediate can 'get down' most pisted runs; but most of the time this run is laden with iceberg moguls so whilst they may indeed 'survive' its hardly skiing and more scraping down without hopefully falling over / injury / injuring others. . .agree that in good conditions (squeaky snow / average bumps / run off areas) anyone can tackle it; but that's rarely the case.
Every time I've ever skied this run / Tunnel / Schilthorn irrespective of conditions I'd hazard a guess and say that 80% shouldn't really be on there, 15% are 'coping' but hardly enjoying themselves, 4% are progressing and perhaps 1% are smashing it . . . .!
I'm not suggesting runs like this should be banned / perma closed; just perhaps more honestly marketed and the risks better communicated - your average punter might make better choices on this basis
@Layne - "Should they or how should they be marketed? I agree that marketing for the wall above doesn't sit right with me. The emphasise should be on having the ability and skiing it in the right conditions" -
Perfectly put
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Belch wrote: |
| most of the time this run is laden with iceberg moguls |
Simply not true. Even after it has been skied a lot the main issue is the first three or four turns at the top where the moguls can be pretty big. After that it widens considerably and the bumps are a lot smaller. Whether they are "iceberg" or not depends on the weather conditions. When "iceberg" they close it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@DJL, That may be your experience but its certainly not mine - I've only ever skied the Wall a few times and tbf its been doable albeit not enjoyable . . .I've skied Le Tunnel far more times (from when it was a drop off right at the tunnel exit; access has since been made a LOT easier) and only once has it been a positive experience (squeaky snow / marginal bumps) - maybe its the luck of the draw or the time of year I've skied it!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@robdob437, welcome to SH and thank-you. I think you absolutely did the right thing warning those who were out of the Wall area against going up.
With regards to whether runs like Swiss Wall should exist, yes they should. I'm maybe start to think about the classifications of terrain (theres little use calling Swiss Wall a piste) used in europe. We don't see green for beginners anymore, just blue, red and black. PERHAPS its time to consider the use of the US/NA classification of Double Black, when there is such a disparity in what is classified black - look at La Face in Val or Fordoma above Arabba; Swiss Wall and some of the others mentioned are clearly in a different league. Does it stop people, maybe not, but it does concentrate the mind.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 13-02-24 13:22; edited 1 time in total
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@Belch, I have skied the wall literally 100s of times and it's usually good fun skiing, other than the other skiers.
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@Belch, I think you earlier mentioned that the US grading system would be better...but Swiss Wall isn't badge as just any other black run, it has several very clear warnings that it is particularly difficult. While I agree that it shouldn't be advertise as a gauntlet being thrown down (which it seems it has been), I don't think there's an issue with it existing. It's a risky hobby, the run makes it clear that there is increased risk and you should be advanced to tackle it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Belch, sorry, I hadn't read your post above,
"your average punter might make better choices on this basis"
Definitely.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It's not a bit clear, @Belch, why you keep tackling difficult runs (like Le Tunnel) when you hardly ever enjoy them. Or why you think other people, who do enjoy them, shouldn't have the opportunity to do so. Or why you think you might once have been as good a skier as @under a new name. He's out of most of our leagues......
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Origen, Not sure I understand you? Not sure you understand my written English either . . .I've no idea whether @Under is a skiing demi-god or not; that's not the point I'm making . .!
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@robdob437, thanks. Sounds like you did exactly the right thing to me.
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| Layne wrote: |
| ... I guess a question would be - how many deaths/injuries are there per skier run? And is that figure too high. Which brings us to related point 2... |
Take a look at the French accident statistics... there's a report in there which from memory suggests that the "most dangerous pistes"[1] aren't what most people would imagine.
Big wide easier runs are actually the most risky, broadly because people ride faster on them.
So if you're getting into controlling incidents by changing the type of terrain available as opposed to suggesting that people obey the patrol, you may not like where that leads you.
| belch wrote: |
| ...most of the time this run is laden with iceberg moguls |
Never when I've ridden it. That's not through chance alone.
Most people work out how to pick "in condition" slopes. Those moguls aren't formed when they're solid ice.
But if it's icebergs, then it'll be closed: the patrol does your thinking for you if you can't.
| belch wrote: |
| ..more honestly marketed and the risks better communicated - your average punter might make better choices on this basis |
But the choice was simply to ignore a closed sign. No amount of marketing changes "closed" to "open". You're arguing in circles, because you're trying to avoid that one thing.
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[1] One needs to read their caveating and understand the limitation of their methodology to interpret this well.
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You know it makes sense.
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OK, trying again. You have only once enjoyed one of the difficult runs you've tackled. So it's not clear why you kept trying (I believe in giving up when appropriate - "savoir renoncer" as they say in French). I happen to know that UANN is an exceptionally good skier but, regardless, the fact is that he and many others who are just "average" do enjoy skiing difficult runs and I don't understand why you appear to think they shouldn't have the option.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Origen,
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You have only once enjoyed one of the difficult runs you've tackled. So it's not clear why you kept trying (I believe in giving up when appropriate - "savoir renoncer" as they say in French
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On the basis of that 'logic' I would probably have given up the piano at Grade I and skiing after a week!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I am no sort of skiing demi-anything.
well, maybe a demi-Pélican 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Origen, Try as many times as you like but your still missing the point! I'm not questioning 'average' skiers choosing to tackle difficult runs; everyone has the choice to progress however they see fit - if they get a kick out of scraping down a steepish mogul field and surviving good luck to them - I've been there and got the T-shirt. FYI I've also skied plenty of difficult runs by choice and smashed them. What I'm inferring perhaps is that 'a significant number' of skiers massively over estimate their ability (whether they're young and stoopid or experienced and in denial) and that runs like this are maybe marketed in an inappropriate way that further encourages an individual's estimation of themselves . .
@phil_w, Fair point re the accident statistics on Blues and makes total sense; I'm not avoiding the 'closed piste' edict as this goes without saying . . .
The Wall is still advertised as very much a 'bucket list' accomplishment and open to all skiers; perhaps the risk was taken because it was empty for a change and therefore worth tackling. . .?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@under a new name, Ok apols for the demi - I'm upgrading you to 'God' status with immediate effect!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@robdob437, The man with incredible vision - what pray tell identifies a rental ski at distance and how on earth can you call a DIN setting - such speculation only fantasizes the incredibly unfortunate events that occurred that dreadful day.
Many of your observations maybe accurate and useful but please leave rest out - its simply not helpful.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Belch, I think you have a point about the “marketing”.
Take two steep, ungroomed black runs in the area - Swiss Wall and the Combe de Machon over on Grandes Combes in Avoriaz. Both steep (I’m not sure whether Machon is quite as steep as the Wall, but I’ve seen people fall a long way on it), both sustained (I might even say CdM is steeper for longer?), both with a fairly narrow, steep entry (assuming you do CdM from the top bowl) - but one is usually rammed with people sketching their way down it, the other is frequently empty, and those you see on it are usually skiing it as opposed to side-slipping.
The vicious circle is that SW gets big, chopped off moguls because it gets so much more traffic (and is therefore harder), whereas CdM is usually bumpy but not scarily so. Now CdM is north facing and doesn’t get the sun, so perhaps stays in better condition, but the big difference for me is that SW has “a reputation” and even novices will say “next time I want to do the Swiss Wall”, whereas CdM is (I think) pretty much as hard a run in comparable conditions, but because of where it is and the lack of a reputation, it gets far less traffic.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Charliee, DIN may be difficult to spot, but a rental ski doesn't take much identifying from a lift. It also isn't particularly relevant though, not like DIN or ability are based on whether it's rented or owned.
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I think that the Dunning-Kruger curve has been mentioned on many threads, and nowhere is it more applicable than for skiing. I "skied" the Tunnel several times on my journey to the peak of Mount Stupid, I seem to remember that there was not much of a platform back then, and to be honest I was rather more scared by the approach than the mogul field itself. I thought I was pretty good, by side slipping most of the way getting in a few turns and not falling over ... I thought that I must be a brilliant skier having not fallen over on one of the toughest black runs in Europe. What an f***ing idiot I was (maybe still am). It has probably taken me 20 years to get to where I would like to consider to be half way up the slope of enlightenment, and I suspect that I will never have the misplaced confidence of twenty years ago.
However we learn from our experiences, and if runs like the Tunnel and the Swiss Wall did not exist we would not get challenged, except for venturing off piste, which is not an option for everyone, and off piste is probably the most challenged aspect due to climate change.
My view is that you have to try some challenging stuff, in order to improve your technique for the easier stuff. I also personally like to ski steep pistes.
I say this in defence of challenging pistes and the right to be challenged.
Also ADH based, on one of the Tunnel trips I remember back then seeing an ESF ski instructor ducking the ropes at the top of the Sarenne, me and my mates thought, if it is ok for an instructor, it must be ok for us. We subsequently encountered what seemed like several kilometers of icy track at the bottom, which proved more challenging than I would have liked.
I dont think that I have wittingly ducked the ropes without being with a guide (to access off piste) since. If it says closed there probably is a good reason. I was fortunate enough to learn the lesson early in my skiing journey and come out unscathed.
Perhaps it is also worth thinking about the dynamics of being in a group in this case. In the Sarenne experience (above) there was a lot of bravado involved in taking the decision to duck the ropes.
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It's true that I'm not sure what Belch is saying - he now tells us that he has "smashed" lots of difficult runs, though earlier he said he'd often skied "Le Tunnel" and only once enjoyed it. That's why I wondered why he kept doing it. If he said he'd done the tunnel ten times and "smashed it" the last time, after taking lessons to improve his technique, then I'd entirely understand! Some people like to tackle ski slopes which are way above their ability. I don't, because I'm afraid of hurting myself though I've enjoyed tackling some just a tad above my level, usually with expert support (like La Grave that day) but I wouldn't argue, as Belch seems to be doing, that other people shouldn't take on big challenges or that when awful things happen, it's the resort's fault for providing such slopes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Oh come on, I've had loads of trips to the Swiss Wall and similar which have resulted in various of our party sliding down it head first sans skis, much to everyone's hilarity and replayed over beers in the pub many times since.
This chap and his daughter were very unlucky. We've already covered the ins and outs of going past closed signs (don't do it, but it's an understandable mistake to make for various reasons), but we have to remember skiing is inherently a risky sport.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Belch wrote: |
Every time I've ever skied this run / Tunnel / Schilthorn irrespective of conditions I'd hazard a guess and say that 80% shouldn't really be on there, 15% are 'coping' but hardly enjoying themselves, 4% are progressing and perhaps 1% are smashing it . . . .!
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A personal observation is that I think at least 90% of skiers I see on runs like this do absolutely fine, you just remember the ones who aren't as they stick in ones mind more and they tend to get a bit stuck at times and stay on the run a lot longer, for the vast majority of very average skiers they ski it perfectly adequately and enjoy it at least in retrospect.
EDIT I've not actually done the Tunnel run so I cant comment on that particular one.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Belch, Clearly perceived ability is subjective but as a general point I think my observation is true, that most people ski these runs perfectly adequately but our recall is drawn to those who don't partly because they are more memorable but also because they are more static so are present for a lot longer.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Charliee wrote: |
@robdob437, The man with incredible vision - what pray tell identifies a rental ski at distance and how on earth can you call a DIN setting - such speculation only fantasizes the incredibly unfortunate events that occurred that dreadful day.
Many of your observations maybe accurate and useful but please leave rest out - its simply not helpful. |
Thank you for a response. I agree that some of the information I put in is not useful however it was a mere observation from my point of view, telling the forum what I saw as it happened.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Charliee wrote: |
@robdob437, The man with incredible vision - what pray tell identifies a rental ski at distance and how on earth can you call a DIN setting - such speculation only fantasizes the incredibly unfortunate events that occurred that dreadful day.
Many of your observations maybe accurate and useful but please leave rest out - its simply not helpful. |
Wow. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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@robdob437, thanks for your contribution, and sorry you had to witness such an unpleasant episode.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| T Bar wrote: |
| 90% of skiers I see on runs like this do absolutely fine |
Without being pedantic quantify 'absolutely fine' . . .methinks you must be wearing Oakley Prizm Rose tinted goggles!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Belch wrote: |
Without being pedantic quantify 'absolutely fine' . |
Progress safely and securely without endangering others.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| Charliee wrote: |
@robdob437, The man with incredible vision - what pray tell identifies a rental ski at distance and how on earth can you call a DIN setting - such speculation only fantasizes the incredibly unfortunate events that occurred that dreadful day.
Many of your observations maybe accurate and useful but please leave rest out - its simply not helpful. |
Wow. |
There are some uptight people floating around! Whatever happened to the benefit of doubt?
I can spot some hire skis from quite far away (rossi experience with a big sticker on the tip?). The lift is pretty close to the piste! Ski shops always err on the side of caution with dins, Les brevieres Skiset gave my 100kg intermediate friend (6ft with size 11's) skis set at 5. He lost them on the first bit of chop we encountered...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Thomasski wrote: |
| Ski shops always err on the side of caution with dins, Les brevieres Skiset gave my 100kg intermediate friend (6ft with size 11's) skis set at 5. He lost them on the first bit of chop we encountered... |
How old is he? With big feet and if over 50 years of age DIN 5 is not far off – should be 5.5 according to this calculator. https://www.dincalculator.com/
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Belch wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
| 90% of skiers I see on runs like this do absolutely fine |
Without being pedantic quantify 'absolutely fine' . . .methinks you must be wearing Oakley Prizm Rose tinted goggles! |
So do you think that more than 10% of skiers fall down? TBH I'd be surprised if it were even that high.
I'm choosing to interpret "absolutely fine" as "got down safely", not "skied it like a god".
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| robdob437 wrote: |
| Charliee wrote: |
@robdob437, The man with incredible vision - what pray tell identifies a rental ski at distance and how on earth can you call a DIN setting - such speculation only fantasizes the incredibly unfortunate events that occurred that dreadful day.
Many of your observations maybe accurate and useful but please leave rest out - its simply not helpful. |
Thank you for a response. I agree that some of the information I put in is not useful however it was a mere observation from my point of view, telling the forum what I saw as it happened. |
And we thank you for your observations. All of them.
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| DJL wrote: |
| Thomasski wrote: |
| Ski shops always err on the side of caution with dins, Les brevieres Skiset gave my 100kg intermediate friend (6ft with size 11's) skis set at 5. He lost them on the first bit of chop we encountered... |
How old is he? With big feet and if over 50 years of age DIN 5 is not far off – should be 5.5 according to this calculator. https://www.dincalculator.com/ |
36, they were popping off at any hint of energised skiing. Used the lifty tools to get them up to seven and they were fine.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Thomasski wrote: |
| DJL wrote: |
| Thomasski wrote: |
| Ski shops always err on the side of caution with dins, Les brevieres Skiset gave my 100kg intermediate friend (6ft with size 11's) skis set at 5. He lost them on the first bit of chop we encountered... |
How old is he? With big feet and if over 50 years of age DIN 5 is not far off – should be 5.5 according to this calculator. https://www.dincalculator.com/ |
36, they were popping off at any hint of energised skiing. Used the lifty tools to get them up to seven and they were fine. |
Yeah, I've always felt that the calculators, and in practice what rental shops will set them on, are waay too low for an aggressive skier. I'm maybe an inch taller, a tad lighter (85kg) with size 44/45 feet, set mine on 8.5-9. Sometimes have to sign a waiver for the shop to set them that high, sometime just do it myself outside the door. Not that I often rent, but I used to a lot more, and those settings were based on my pre-instructor days.
Edit: Having said that, I just put my own measures (except age, no way I want an old persons settings) through that calculator and it came out as... 8.5 So maybe they're not too far out after all.
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| phil_w wrote: |
@robdob437, thanks. Sounds like you did exactly the right thing to me.
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| Layne wrote: |
| ... I guess a question would be - how many deaths/injuries are there per skier run? And is that figure too high. Which brings us to related point 2... |
Take a look at the French accident statistics... there's a report in there which from memory suggests that the "most dangerous pistes"[1] aren't what most people would imagine.
Big wide easier runs are actually the most risky, broadly because people ride faster on them.
So if you're getting into controlling incidents by changing the type of terrain available as opposed to suggesting that people obey the patrol, you may not like where that leads you.
| belch wrote: |
| ...most of the time this run is laden with iceberg moguls |
Never when I've ridden it. That's not through chance alone.
Most people work out how to pick "in condition" slopes. Those moguls aren't formed when they're solid ice.
But if it's icebergs, then it'll be closed: the patrol does your thinking for you if you can't.
| belch wrote: |
| ..more honestly marketed and the risks better communicated - your average punter might make better choices on this basis |
But the choice was simply to ignore a closed sign. No amount of marketing changes "closed" to "open". You're arguing in circles, because you're trying to avoid that one thing.
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[1] One needs to read their caveating and understand the limitation of their methodology to interpret this well. |
Hi @phil_w regarding the fatal accidents on wide blue/green runs, out of interest, would you know any stats on single user accidents versus two users colliding?
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FAQ
