 Poster: A snowHead
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@Je suis un Skieur I'm not trying to BS you. I'm probably using "carve" in a much looser sense than it should be used. I take it you think that a carving ski is something of a misnomer because hardly anyone who buys one can use it as marketed.
I wasn't trying to say I expected to "carve" on a black. Nor can I ever "carve" a whole turn: I'm not pretending to be anywhere near that seamless transition and the first third is always skiddy: I know I can't initiate the turns right. I'm more than prepared to believe that all I'm doing is skidding less but it is definitely less (not just smoother) than my "other" turns because when it works it's a lot quieter and I have to come a long way further round from the fall line or I'm too fast into the next turn and that one will be a mess.
btw. I'm not "self taught". I haven't done ski lessons since about 1995 but I did do ski lessons every year from 1980 to then. I therefore never had a lesson on anything like a modern ski and I certainly couldn't do anything but skid on my old 195cm Kästles or anything that preceded them, although I was familiar with the concept of carving even then.
Nevertheless, it is possible that I am totally deluded.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@tsgsh, don't take this the wrong way but you sound mentally all over the place.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm not sure there's a right way to take that.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I did a bit of carving the other week on my All Mountain skis (84 underfoot, radius 12), it's not that difficult. Not on a black run, obviously.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@tsgsh Appreciate the honesty and I'll try not to be quite as harsh as @Layne.
| tsgsh wrote: |
| I'm not trying to BS you. I'm probably using "carve" in a much looser sense than it should be used. |
Indeed you are. Completely incorrect sense would be more accurate and I would suggest you stick to something like "controlled" turns rather than using the term "carving", especially on a skiing forum!
| tsgsh wrote: |
| I take it you think that a carving ski is something of a misnomer because hardly anyone who buys one can use it as marketed. |
Nope. A screwdriver is still a screwdriver even if you use it as a chisel - it's not the screwdriver's fault.
| tsgsh wrote: |
| I wasn't trying to say I expected to "carve" on a black. Nor can I ever "carve" a whole turn: I'm not pretending to be anywhere near that seamless transition and the first third is always skiddy: I know I can't initiate the turns right. I'm more than prepared to believe that all I'm doing is skidding less but it is definitely less (not just smoother) than my "other" turns because when it works it's a lot quieter and I have to come a long way further round from the fall line or I'm too fast into the next turn and that one will be a mess. |
This will take forever to properly explain but the short version is you need to accept that the first third of one turn is the last third of the previous turn. Skis get juddery in short turns when you put too much pressure on, too late in the turn. One turn finished poorly automatically means the next one is started poorly, assuming that they are actually linked and you're not traversing between turns. You've already said that your left turns are better than your right turns so I assume you're right footed. It's not unusual, you should do some one-legged balance and proprioception exercises to even out the skillset between your feet and make a conscious effort to spend some runs with your left foot as the dominant one i.e. always turn right as the first and last turn on every run, always brake using your left leg, do all hockey stops to the right etc.
| tsgsh wrote: |
| btw. I'm not "self taught". I haven't done ski lessons since about 1995 but I did do ski lessons every year from 1980 to then. I therefore never had a lesson on anything like a modern ski and I certainly couldn't do anything but skid on my old 195cm Kästles or anything that preceded them, although I was familiar with the concept of carving even then. |
This really rather speaks for itself. You need someone to show you how to use the shape of a modern ski to turn you through pressure and angulation inputs instead of you always turning the ski through rotation inputs. It's the whole point of what I posted earlier about "standing on the ski". The ski will do a lot of the work for you if you let it - but most people don't.
So to cut to the chase and to address some of your other points:
- your weight makes no odds at all, arguably it would be easier to carve if you were heavier because it makes it easier to get the ski into reverse camber.
- I doubt that changing skis will make much difference, could be better could be worse
- the time gaps between your ski trips are far more of an issue. I'd happily wager that you'd improve far more through going on a two week trip on the same skis than a one week trip on different skis.
- you clearly need tuition on "modern technique" using shaped skis whether you think so or not
I actually think you come across as very self aware and very self analytical of what your skiing issues are; you recognise all the symptoms of crap skiing but just don't know how to improve it. Best thing you could do would be to book on a one week "performance" course with a company like Snoworks, Warren Smith etc. A single lesson isn't going to be enough, you've got decades of inappropriate habits that need updating. Bite the bullet and put the time in, you won't regret it. You might even learn how to carve!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Je suis un Skieur, thank you. That is very helpful. I appreciate the time that you took to explain it.
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Never understood what the big deal is with carving. It's simple. You a) dislocate your hips from the rest of your body, b) lay the outside ski on it's edge and make sure it digs right into the smoothly prepared (preferably hard) piste c) keep it that way until you reach the other side of the piste d) at this point allow the fully dislocated hips to swivel under your perfectly upright body and switch over to digging the other ski into the piste and repeat. Further notes: Poling is for beginners. Your hands should be in front of your body and should make inward motions during the course of the turn while the poles sort of trail behind you. You should make sure you use the entire available width of the piste so no one can pass and all can admire your carving skills from behind...
It should be noted that this technique will turn to poo as soon as you encounter a bump or a slushy bit or even a steeper bit.
Did I miss something?
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@Steilhang, you forgot to mention if your hip and inside hand aren't dragging along the floor, it's not a carve
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I’d generally assumed that if I’d dislocated my hips, I’d done something wrong
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @Mollerski, good argument, but I'm surprised about the less tired bit. I get much less tired now that I've learned to ski more efficiently (for want of a better word). I do agree, though, that seeking prettiness is not particularity useful and sacrificing fun is even less so. |
Maintaining a 'dynamic position' loads the quads moreso than standing bolt upright in the classic slider style.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| @Mollerski, good argument, but I'm surprised about the less tired bit. I get much less tired now that I've learned to ski more efficiently (for want of a better word). I do agree, though, that seeking prettiness is not particularity useful and sacrificing fun is even less so. |
Maintaining a 'dynamic position' loads the quads moreso than standing bolt upright in the classic slider style. |
watch a world cupper at the end of a run. I'll put my cock on the block and say their legs and lungs are feeling taxed after that one run.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Steilhang, I'm of that chain of thought. As a young lad I purchased some K2 Fours on the advice of the shop sales man. I was considering Rossi viper s. Bode Miller had just mopped up at the US junior nationals on the K2's. I went for a lesson 1st morning. ski instructor said "forget what you've been doing this is how we do it now"
From the 1st demo I was carving. However I played ice hockey during my youth and spent many ice hours sliding forward as speed on an unstable surface. All of the hockey lads found skiing came very easy.
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| Baron von chippy wrote: |
watch a world cupper at the end of a run. I'll put my cock on the block and say their legs and lungs are feeling taxed after that one run. |
I think that I agree. 
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You know it makes sense.
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@Mollerski, I'm not sure that comparing the average snowHead, however good a skier, to a WC performing the feats they do on a non-stop race on sheet ice is particularly useful.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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reading through some of the descriptions here I'm not sure if we're got instructions for carving or doing The Timewarp...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| reading through some of the descriptions here I'm not sure if we're got instructions for carving or doing The Timewarp... |
You make a "V" sign , you just don't care.  Oh No, that's the Resurrection shuffle ski instruction.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DrLawn wrote: |
@frejul,
What you're NOT a phaffer?
You'll need to get some lessons then.
I'm proud to be a level 9 of Phaffer, I get coaching at Hemmel Fridge every 2nd Wednesday.
Anyone can join and you don't have to bring your own gloves, goggles or hand warmers.
But I would recommend getting your own lip balm.
When you get on your holiday, you can show off the skills you have honed.
Your crew will marvel at how long you can spend checking all your pockets, unwrinkling your socks, the boot clipping. There is an art to it, you'll master it. |
I've just had to turn off the camera on a Teams meeting as I realised I was laughing out loud. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @Mollerski, I'm not sure that comparing the average snowHead, however good a skier, to a WC performing the feats they do on a non-stop race on sheet ice is particularly useful. |
no your right there. But that Wc'er literally lives, sleeps and eats for that one or 2 runs at the weekend. If someone who's technique, training programme, diet and life style is the best in the world and they're physically exhausted after 1 run. You'd think us mere mortals would also fatigue if battling the forces put against us when carving. The forces are far greater carving than heal pushing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| tsgsh wrote: |
| I'm not sure there's a right way to take that. |
Just to be clear I wasn't questioning your sanity or anything just that your thinking is scattered/not clear. Hence people getting confused about whether you expect to carve on a black run or whether you are self taught to name but two things that cropped.
Je suis un Skieur said I was harsh but them "Completely incorrect sense" seems pretty damming  - although I would probably agree. Anyway their post was very good, I agree with most of it and you seem to agree it was helpful so apologies if my comment came across as harsh/insulting.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 4-03-24 16:28; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Baron von chippy wrote: |
| The forces are far greater carving than heal pushing. |
Sure, but if you’re just cruising down gentle terrain, parking and riding your edges, you’re putting less energy in to your skiing than twisting and skidding your skis.
I think the broader point being made is that for any given outcome, skiing well means you put less energy in than if you ski badly. You use the kit more effectively, so it works for you.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Baron von chippy wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| @Mollerski, I'm not sure that comparing the average snowHead, however good a skier, to a WC performing the feats they do on a non-stop race on sheet ice is particularly useful. |
no your right there. But that Wc'er literally lives, sleeps and eats for that one or 2 runs at the weekend. If someone who's technique, training programme, diet and life style is the best in the world and they're physically exhausted after 1 run. You'd think us mere mortals would also fatigue if battling the forces put against us when carving. The forces are far greater carving than heal pushing. |
No - it is definitely more efficient when done properly. Not least as the forces are transmitted and controlled more from your whole musculo-skeletal frame. And the comparison to racing is silly, trust me it is a completely different thing to carving recreationally on a blue/red piste.
I have no problem with those who choose not to, or can't, carve. There are many other valid and skillful ways of skiing. And I see many skiers who can (sort of, some of the time) carve who are a danger to themselves and others because they have low levels of all the other skills. But trying to find ways to make it "worse" than other approaches to turning is simply ill-informed, especially trying to use the argument that it is more tiring. What will be more tiring is the learning process, but that is true for anything.
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| Baron von chippy wrote: |
| The forces are far greater carving than heal pushing. |
Nope. The forces are greater when you go faster, but that WC racer would sure be using a lot more energy if they were not carving. And would be unable to go as fast or as long, of course. The comparison may not be completely valid but it's fair to say that more efficient skiing, including using the ski shape and not fighting the snow (by pushing so much of it sideways when skidding) will be advantageous both to the WC racer and to the casual blue run long-lunch holiday skier.
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| To carve on a red outside of a race course requires big balls |
<ahem> Thank you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@zikomo, @Chaletbeauroc, I agree.
Carving is much easier than skidding in all conditions, but most so when you're in chopped up and heavy snow IMO.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've got to admit, the steeper parts of reds are tricky on all mountain skis, and as always you've got to judge conditions around you and look out for any downhill skiers, especially when overtaking, but I do regularly carve on red slopes.
Blacks have always been a bit beyond me though, mainly through fear about the amount of speed I'd be carrying.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Carving is fun but that glorious surfy feeling you get when abusing an inappropriate ski is funner.
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Well this thread has gone off in some different directions - people who think they can carve, want to carve to carve to save energy, want to avoid carving to save energy.
Just to be clear - membership requirements for the CCWCC (Can't Carve, Won't Carve Club) are..
- Inability to carve (occasionally locking an edge and getting a carving sensation is acceptable - so long as it was accidental).
- Not wanting to carve (although we have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it comes to secret aspirations).
- Owning or renting inappropriately wide all-mountain skis with a large radius and blunt edges to reduce the risk of inadvertent carving while on piste.
The initiation ceremony consists of shouting "Carving is for turkeys" three times in apacked cable car.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| frejul wrote: |
Well this thread has gone off in some different directions - people who think they can carve, want to carve to carve to save energy, want to avoid carving to save energy.
Just to be clear - membership requirements for the CCWCC (Can't Carve, Won't Carve Club) are..
- Inability to carve (occasionally locking an edge and getting a carving sensation is acceptable - so long as it was accidental).
- Not wanting to carve (although we have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it comes to secret aspirations).
- Owning or renting inappropriately wide all-mountain skis with a large radius and blunt edges to reduce the risk of inadvertent carving while on piste.
The initiation ceremony consists of shouting "Carving is for turkeys" three times in apacked cable car. |
Sounds like quite a cool club to be honest. Is there a ’sometimes likes to carve but ensures the club doesn't bear witness’ member?
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Poster: A snowHead
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A genuine comment; I think those on here that can clearly carve should offer some face-to-face coaching to those of us who aspire to carve.
If nothing else, with everone carving who wants to, that would leave the CCWCC club feeling even more chuffed with themselves!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well, you can't knock a man for trying 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @Mollerski, I'm not sure that comparing the average snowHead, however good a skier, to a WC performing the feats they do on a non-stop race on sheet ice is particularly useful. |
That's a World class dickhead comment right there. Congratulations.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 22-02-24 20:27; edited 2 times in total
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@Mollerski, you're bloody rude. Congratulations.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @Mollerski, I'm not sure that comparing the average snowHead, however good a skier, to a WC performing the feats they do on a non-stop race on sheet ice is particularly useful. |
Au contraire - I think you can compare - just as you can compare me pushing a shopping trolley round Tescos with Lewis Hamilton steering an F1 car round a grand prix circuit. It's all in the cornering.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @Mollerski, you're bloody rude. Congratulations. |
Your comment was lame to the point of being idiotic. It got what it deserved by way of a retort. I make no apology.
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There there, @Hurtle & @Mollerski.
You’re both correct on your own right. Carving as what the ‘muricans call “park & ride” is easy and not exhausting. Just tip the skis to an edge and do the railroad tracks - much faster and less taxing than doing the hard work of swinging the tails of the skis around. But then, skiing like a racer does - staying low, forward, continuously altering long leg-short leg, building the edge angle and resisting the forces that build after the fall line just like doing one-legged squats in not just one G but perhaps several, depending on the speed - a couple of minutes of that and most of us are spent.
There’s a time and place for all of these styles: skidding, skarving, stivots, park&ride-carving and finally that “aggressive” carving. I feel all of them to be tools in a box, where from an expert craftsman selects the appropriate one for a specific task, depending on the desired speed, slope, conditions, level of fatigue etc. No-one can or at least should be locked in one style only - at least not if one desires to ski for several days in a row in all kinds of terrain, on pistes and off.
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FAQ
