 Poster: A snowHead
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I hire skis and I ’m unsure what skis I should be using.
Previously I have used piste skis which I like to carve with on blue but on reds I can carve until I’m going uncontrollably too fast and obviously stop. So on reds/blacks I tend to do short skidded turns, but with piste skis I’ve found they can be a bit ‘edgy’ for this.
This year I tried some black crows vertis, which are all mountain skis, but not too wide and piste focused. These were much better on reds/blacks and improved my short skidded turns, but made my carving less enjoyable. Is there a happy medium or do I just need to improve my technique so I can carve and do short skidded turns with either type of ski?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There are AM skis with a strong Piste bias, like Rossi Experience 82/86 in both Basalt or Ti; or Elan Wingman 82/86 in a Ti or CTi.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You don't need all mountain skis unless you are skiing off piste - which it doesn't sound as if you are.
"Carving" is a controversial topic and it sounds from your post that you further instruction. Basically if you can't ski all pistes well on piste skis getting all mountain skis is not the answer.
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@JRB747373, Get a lesson to improve your carving on piste skis. With better technique you should be able to "carve" short turns.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I agree I need to improve my technique to carve on steeper stuff. But, when it gets bumpy in the afternoon carving isn’t possible and you need skidded turns, in my opinion that is. And, I find piste skis aren’t the best for this.
Maybe people can do short skidded turns on piste skis easy enough but i struggle with it. I also enjoy doing both types of turns, I don’t want to carve every run.
I think all mountian skis with a strong piste bias as suggested above might be best for what I want. Or I’m being naive and need to persevere with piste skis to improve my technique. There’s too much choice!
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@JRB747373, IMO....While there is certainly merit in the above advice, I think that since you are hiring, you might as well experiment.
A carving Piste ski has a tighter turning and a full camber - which means it wants to "bite" and carve. AM skis often have a Tail Rocker, which makes skidding/smearing a little easier.
In softer conditions, having a bit of extra width and an AM profile can make life easier.
I'm all for - within reason - people hiring what they most enjoy.
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| JRB747373 wrote: |
| But, when it gets bumpy in the afternoon carving isn’t possible and you need skidded turns, in my opinion that is. And, I find piste skis aren’t the best for this. |
When you say "bumpy" do you mean moguls? If so you definitely don't want a wider AM ski.
If you mean soft/slushy then yeah maybe a piste oriented AM ski might help.
Also what do you by "edgy".
But to be honest I think you are honing in one the wrong thing. I ski off piste oriented AM skis. I can do anything competently on them. They are by their nature a compromise ski. But if you are skiing on piste all day an all round piste ski you would expect is the way to go.
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@JRB747373, for the avoidance of doubt, could you please define what carving is?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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By ‘edgy’ I mean difficult to get the tail to skid, like you’re fighting it
As for carving, i was unaware there was any controversy. For me, carving is simply not skidding and using the edges of your skis to turn by using pressure on your outside ski
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A piste ski and a skinnier AM are essentially the same thing until you get into more specialist kit.
I think the OP is basically saying that he prefers a rockered/ upturned tail as a full flat tail is harder to release to drift/ skid.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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“Dynamic and playful, the Vertis is a short radius ski (15 meters) designed for vitality. With its 85mm width underfoot, it benefits from very fast edge-to-edge transition which accentuates the pleasure of carving. Both accessible and powerful thanks to its intermediate flex, the Vertis is the ultimate blackcrows piste ski.”
From their website.
If you don’t want to carve every piste then you likely need more lessons!
I ski an 88mm all-mountain ski which carves beautifully and floats delightfully.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@James the Last,
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If you don’t want to carve every piste then you likely need more lessons!
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If you like carving and skiing on smooth, hard, prepared pistes you generally want a narrow wasted, heavy and stiff, race inspired SL or GS ski. The weight help them sink through any soft surface snow to find the hard stuff, ideally for the ski ice below while the narrow waste means you can switch from edge to edge really quickly to change direction, with the minimal time during the change where the base us flat against the snow. Put them on soft, deep powder though and you'll be sinking knee deep and double ejecting in no time though.
If you like skiing fields of fresh, deep, soft powder you want a lighter, much wider ski that will both minimise and spread your weight over the greatest area, helping you float on top of the snow. That width means you have to roll them further to carve turns on piste though, just because there's a much bigger flat zone. They will also tend to 'chatter' more and not hold their edges as well on piste due to their lack of weight and stiffness.
In between those two extremes is 90% of the ski market but the logic of the extremes still applies so the more on piste your skiing/harder and compacted the snow the more piste focused a ski you want, while the more you venture into side and off piste/deeper and softer the snow the more all mountain a ski you want.
It sounds like you're a mainly/only piste skier who likes to both carve and skid turns so I'd say stick with piste skis but not the racier side of the spectrum. Guessing your level I'd say you should be hiring one of the top price packages - and taking advantage of swapping ski. Spend a couple of days on the skis they first give you then if you don't love them go back to the shop and ask to swap, saying what you do and don't like about the first pair. It won't be a manic Sat/Sun and more so they should have the time to help you, rather than just throwing skis at people to get through the queue.
But yes, get lessons too. Your skiing sounds very much where I was at a couple of years ago at which point I found an instructor who just 'spoke my language'. Over the last couple of years/4 lessons he's basically talken my technique apart and rebuilt it to the point the sarcastic off piste guide I use 'complimented' my skiing this year. At least that's what I took from "Your skiing is better. Your turns don't scare me any more." 
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You know it makes sense.
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Hmmm… I dont doubt that we all need more lessons however very very few skiers genuinely carve all their turns on steeper reds and blacks. If you can do that you will be one of the top couple of percent of skiers on the mountain. Plus you will be skiing quite fast on those runs even if you are able to control that speed - a certain amount of speed is needed to attain the edge angles and pressure required (especially at turn initiation) to carve hard enough not to gain too much speed on a steep piste, especially if the snow is not perfect. Most, even very good skiers, allow their tails to slide at least a bit in these situations. Often it is unavoidable due to slower skiers on the run in any case. A nicely “slarved” turn can be effective and stylish. IMHO I think you should look to get a wide piste ski - between 75 and c80mm underfoot. Look for something that is not too flared at the tail (a narrower tail is usually easier to break out in a controlled way), not too long for your height (probably chin to eye height) and not too stiff (no metal or just some - not two thick sheets tip to tail). A shorter turn radius ski is easier to carve in shorter arcs (if that is your objective) but a longer radius (say 15m+ in a 170 ish length) is probably easier to slide the tails out and also, when you do put it on a high edge, it won’t come back underneath you so fast that it is hard to maintain a good fore/aft balance. Just my tuppence….
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| There are AM skis with a strong Piste bias, like Rossi Experience 82/86 in both Basalt or Ti; or Elan Wingman 82/86 in a Ti or CTi. |
this
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Poster: A snowHead
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@ed123, question is does the OP ever go off piste? If not surely better to be sub 80mm. The extra width is only detrimental to his carving ambitions. If so, sure handy to have the extra width.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Angus Grizzly, do you have any recommendations for this type of piste ski?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Angus Grizzly wrote: |
| @ed123, question is does the OP ever go off piste? If not surely better to be sub 80mm. The extra width is only detrimental to his carving ambitions. If so, sure handy to have the extra width. |
I don’t have much experience off piste, but I would like to when the snow is good. I would like a ski that I can carve easily on blues and do nice skidded turns on steep reds/blacks, without having to fight the tail too much
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Are you saying you can’t comfortably skid a piste ski, only carve it??
That’s a technique thing - folk spend ages learning to stop skidding and start carving (and few actually carve properly).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@JRB747373, I am not familiar with all the brands but if you take a look at say Fischer, they have the RC One collection in 78mm, 82mm and 86mm widths depending on your appetite for venturing off the side of the piste. These are all piste focused skis and all would carve well. Along similar lines (if ££ not a huge concern) Stocklii do the Montero range in 76, 80 and 84mm. My own viewpoint is that it depends how focussed you are on improving your steeper piste carving vs your side/off piste days. 76/78 will maximise the former at a compromise to the latter while 84/86 will compromise your on piste carving aspirations somewhat. 80/82 is a nice middle ground (but not the easiest for deeper off piste). Everything is a compromise so having a good think about your priorities is key to ski choice. I think most brands will have something like this in their range though.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@JRB747373, Unless you take a quiver / live in resort / are on a longer trip or are simply happy swopping skis at the rental shop all the time I'm of the view that you need a ski to 'do it all' based on the actual conditions you find in front of you . . .personally, I think AM skis are a good idea if you want to own a middle ground / one ski solution.
Over the last decade (and although it could be viewed a 'vanilla' ski) I've been a massive Rossy Experience fan as they are pretty good at everything and are a familiar / easy ski for the 2 weeks I dedicate annually. Tbf I have seen myself going slightly wider / stiffer on the last two Experience iterations and have now switched to Head Kore 87s (which are lighter but stiffer still - I love them) but this is mainly due to being able to smash through crud / float on slush / nip into the side country and enjoy it rather than simply rely on perfectly pisted runs for carving sessions that rarely exist for elongated periods anyway these days . . .
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@Belch, Agree with all that. I havent skied the Rossis but they are very popular and I imagine with good reason. I know the Head Kore can carve a great turn albeit with a bit more speed and space required than a mid radius piste ski. How much to prioritise the on piste carving? Only the OP can answer that but I wouldn’t recommend a pure carving 60oddmm under foot piste machine for the reasons you state. Great as part of a quiver but not as your only ski IMO. I have a pair of 77mm wide skis which I turn to for variable on-piste conditions.
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@Angus Grizzly, AM ski tech continues to get better and better; although it is harder to carve Kores on hardpack (the Rossis make this easy) they are a happier medium for 'most' conditions and especially for chopped up pistes which seem to be more common over the last couple of seasons with the warmer temps etc.
Saying that I'm on the verge of buying some Black Crows Mirus Cor for 'investigation' purposes - Big Rocker with an 87mm waist and a 13M turn rad - its a new definition of AM!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Which Rossi experience do you recommend? 82 or 86 and basalt or ti?
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| JRB747373 wrote: |
| Which Rossi experience do you recommend? 82 or 86 and basalt or ti? |
Have a look a the overviews by Ski Essentials - who assess the construction of each ski and the sort of skier that it is most suited to.
My own view - based on what I have researched and read - would be:
- I would likely go for the 82, if you spend almost all of your time On piste, as it is a bit more nimble
- If you want to venture off between the pistes more than you currently are - look at the 86
- If you are lighter, less aggressive and want something more forgiving - go Basalt
- If you are hard charging, heavier, technically competent and like a ski that is very stable at higher speeds - go Ti
Ideally, you want to try for yourself, as it is extremely difficult to accurately determine what you will prefer, as there are so many different variables.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@JRB747373, Haven't skied the latest iterations (but tbf they have swopped shovel shapes / side cuts back and forth anyway) but it depends on your skiing preferences / style - on this basis I'd say 82 Basalt if you are a piste cruiser and like to create different turn shapes easily or at the other end the 86 TI which is stiffer and will suit a faster carving style.
If you want to save £ you could go for a previous season range (Experience 84 AI or 88 TI - again a softer vs stiffer ski) or you could try the new Arcade 84 of which I've no idea about other than its an AM with a titanal layer and a slightly smaller turn radius!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I am not looking to buy just yet, I am happy hiring from higher end hire shops. Once I find a ski I like i may buy some, but I’m not sure I want the hassle of lugging them around and may just carry on hiring the same specification I like
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| JRB747373 wrote: |
| I am not looking to buy just yet, I am happy hiring from higher end hire shops. Once I find a ski I like i may buy some, but I’m not sure I want the hassle of lugging them around and may just carry on hiring the same specification I like |
Whether buying or hiring - the answer to your question is the same....try the different options for yourself.
I suspect - as said above - that the 82 Basalt is the likely answer.....but it may not be.
If you really like the ski....it can make sense to buy if want to ensure you get that particular model - as it may not always be available.
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