 Poster: A snowHead
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Bob Barnes, Welcome to sHs - great to have the benefit of your experience here even though we sometimes "diss" (how's that for Queen's English?) the quiver madness and obsessive fascination with the minutiae of technique over at epic its all meant in fun I hope.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bob Barnes, Welcome to Snowheads. So, the point is that your description of unweighting is pretty much what we might call the "modern" meaning of the word. You specify that you do not take the pressure off the ski. this is not the original meaning of the term of course (and you are at least as old as me, so you must remember 'down - stab - spring - spin' or 'plier, planter sauter'.
I don't have a problem with using this word, but I do think it's necessary to explain to the unfortunate skiing public that it no longer means what it used to mean - which has been done in this thread for all Snowheads. I know I'm being pedantic, but I've been seeing problems caused by this midunderstanding over the last couple of years.
Rusty Guy, I had an advantage of having actually seen slikedges, ski, so I knew it was not rotation causing the problem. However it was only a fleeting "watch from the lift" in a snowdome. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ok so you're sat there thinking I understand Bob's great first post, but it's the quiet before the storm. It's probably only a matter of time before someone steps up tp the plate to challenge or throw a different angle on Bob's explanation. This person (or persons) wil no doubt introduce technical terms, acronyms and abbreviations. True to form Bob will come back with even more technical terms and before you know it "bouncing up and down on our beds as kids" becomes "active up/down weighting on a non-stable platform by adolescents"
Your only chance to stay with the thread is to order this book ........ 
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Encyclopedia-Skiing-3rd/dp/0966913159?tag=amz07b-21
PS Welcome Bob
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Can someone help me out and give a decent (simple) description of "down-unweighting" can't get my head round this at all 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DB, He won't be allowed to. You know that overly technobabble posts are ridiculed here and quite rightly so. The place for thse is Epic. He explained himself very well, and everyone's entitled to their opinion.  However it's good to have a discussion.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rich, stand up.
Now; try to bring your feet upwards as fast as you can - faster than your body will start falling downwards anyway.
There you go; that bit when you reduced the weight on your feet was down unweighting
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rich, lift up your legs relatively rapidly into your body while skiing along. The inertia of your body means that the pressure on the skis is reduced while that shortening is going on. Your body will of course sink towards the snow and you'll then have to apply extra pressure to the skis after the "unweighting" action to return to neutral, but a) you should have completed any redirection by then, and b) reextend the legs slowly and the body position is resumed over a longer period of time.
That description by BB of weighting/pressure changes in the pure carved turn tally exactly with what I was being told (and mostly failing to execute) last week. Also reductions in pressure required through the main body of the turn to avoid the skis losing grip sideways when turning on icy hardpack, or right at the beginning of a turn for "drift-and-lock" turns on even slicker ice.
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easiski, Charlotte, maybe a Sticky thread with terminology would be an idea. There are huge differences between the Europeans and Americans, couple that with every intructors prefered technique and it's easy to get lost. That said, i've never heard 2 intructors agree or use the same language when describe the same skier.
This could, too, be said for Bootfitters i guess. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bob Barnes, welcome, and see you in January, I hope! 
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rich, down un weighting is the same as up un weighting in the same way that the black vase on a white background is in fact two white lunching ladies gossiping over a black background...
Or perhaps it's the other way around?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Bob Barnes wrote: |
| In linked pure-carved turns, I'll retract my legs as I come out of a turn, absorbing some of the pressure at the bottom of the turn and passing through "neutral" in a low stance, and then re-extending my legs to develop pressure early in the next turn. These movements cause my body (center of mass) to move in a flat trajectory down the hill, allowing me to work my legs accurately against a stable, strong core. |
Which is exactly what Easiski was talking about with racers, and what rjs has been trying to get me to do in training. As I understand it, it's the only way you can bend the ski very early in the new turn. The feeling is that you're pushing yourself down the hill in front of your skis.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Oops, me and my cans of worms. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| veeeight wrote: |
Ahah! Topic for another skiing myth..... that you can apply pressure early in the turn....  |
I presume you're saying it can't be done?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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marc gledhill, takes commitment though, and most intermediate skiers don't feel stable and secure enough to do it. You do have to trust the skis to hold you up!
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, understood, rjs had me get the feel whilst in a plough (wedge) first, then back to normal stance afterwards.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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marc gledhill, This particular tin opener is staying in the drawer. But in summary:
Early edge angles, yes. Applying pressure early in the turn, no. Pressure is a resultant force (ie: P=F/A) it results from applying a force. On a mountain we let pressure build through the turn. In an artificial snowdome, because the speed and therefore forces are not present, many instructors/coaches resort to artificially creating forces to create the feeling. One of the most successful GS turn tactics is the "White Pass", and that does not involve "early pressure" - just early edges. Ahhh. Said too much already.
Extracts from The Central Theme: (note there is no use of the phrase "apply pressure".
| Quote: |
As this is done, the skier will begin to feel a gradual build up of pressure against the ski. This
is a natural consequence of the skier’s momentum trying to continue in a straight line as the
ski begins to turn. Feel for this pressure build up, and allow the outer leg to bend and settle in
order to control and manage the pressure against the outer ski as the turn progresses. |
| Quote: |
As the turn progresses, the legs are once more allowed to
bend, controlling the build up of pressure and maintaining balance to the completion of the
turn. |
[silence  ]
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 21-11-06 12:12; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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All variations of the same theme, there isn't a new wheel here, just better equipment and refined rules.
IMV.
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veeeight, do you think we're on myth #3 already then 
I agree with the bending of the ski being brought about by direction change forces (momentum) and then gravity during the life of the turn, but I do also think that the skier can assist very early in the turn by getting the ski on it's edge asap and then extending (for want of a better phrase) against it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yes, keeping an extended leg for longer into the fall line will mean that pressure is built up earlier.
That is a different scenario to "applying pressure early in the turn", which usually just results in a lateral displacement of the skis, or a heel push, neither of which are desirable!
In truth an early edge high above the fall line will result in a pressure increase anyway, but I really do not go with the idea that you can "apply early pressure" in a turn.
Anymore of this and I'll have to start Myth #3!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| easiski wrote: |
| You do have to trust the skis to hold you up! |
They sometimes do, but I find a bar or wall works better during apres ski.
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veeeight, that's getting a bit "Epic". It really depends on what peeps understand - back on that again. If you say press on your uphill big toe, it really doesn't matter if the physics mean that pressure is there - peeps will feel pressure on the big toe and consequently on the ski. I reckon that's good enough for most - leave the equations where they belong please.
Of course we could go back to the point of PET, TEP or EPT if you ever did any BASI/ASSI stuff.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| That is a different scenario to "applying pressure early in the turn", which usually just results in a lateral displacement of the skis, or a heel push, neither of which are desirable! |
You need to get your edges done
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I told you those abbreviations would start coming out (by Charlotte of all people ). Next week we will be discussing "is water wet?" whereby 59 posts will actually discuss "what is water?". Stay tunned.
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opps
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 21-11-06 13:54; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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DB, Sorry, I'm tunned up
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DB, Hah. Missed the edit button eh!
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Related to this, we had an interesting result from last week. In the end of course race (admittedly a quite flat and easy course, some tighter corners with a bit of bare glacier ice in the middle, it was possible to stay in a tuck through the vast majority of it), Phil had two runs. In the first he concentrated on being as light and smooth as possible on his skis throughout, with as even weighting between inside and outside as possible. On the second he adopted a much more traditional weighting the outside ski, push-to-accelerate-out-of-the-turn, approach.
The first was well over a second faster than the second (50.57 vs 51.84).
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Poster: A snowHead
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veeeight, bob barnes and i have often talked about creating the top ten myths in ski teaching. i'll leave it to you to continue because you have done a superb job so far!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Rusty Guy, I'll probably run out of steam soon as it's not long now before I start work!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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GrahamN, given the conditions described, that I think is what I'd expect - keep it smooth, minimal effort, maximal result. Bit like the Stig in a race course. Drive on tarmac like a rally driver and you will be well down the board, no?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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GrahamN, did he do the first 2 runs, or did he go first in each session?
DB, Just making a point! Seems I made it!
for those as is interested E = edge; P = pressure; T = turn. the original pic had all three inside a circle, so you can mix and match at will.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Murdoch, yes...entirely as expected and advertised. It was just interesting to see how much difference really being as smooth as possible, with as few associated weighting changes, made as opposed to "trying" to go fast.
easiski, he actually went about halfway through each round (of about 30 skiers each). Most people, including the Eurotest trainees, were fastest on their 2nd or 3rd run, except for the two genuine pros i.e. him and Georgie Hunt (currently skiing off about 80 FIS points), who were both fastest on their first run. Georgie dropped only a couple of 1/10ths on his 2nd run, but there was much amusement that Phil's first time was just faster than both his! No doubt he'll be out for revenge this week.
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GrahamN, Of course Phil must be well chuffed with that - being as he's getting into serious senior age groups these day! He was team in his day, and has always been a super skier. Actually smooth is always fastest, but the trick is to get just enough pressure against the edge to hold you on course and not enough to slow you down - well tricky! A very long time ago Tomasz was losing out because of too much pressure in GS.
We always used to train: first learn the basics properly; then learn to take a good and smooth line and only then try to go fast. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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New topic needed, coming soon. But won't be part of the skiing myth series!
I'm trying to keep the myth series at a basic/intermediate level.
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| I'm no "top instructor." |
Neither am I! I know my limitations!
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