 Poster: A snowHead
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AxsMan, 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sorry it's taken a while to pick up on this, but I want to clear something up...
| Hurtle wrote: |
flowa, if all you're saying is that a minimum set of skills is required to be safe on a mountain at all, I would agree with you - that would include basic things like knowing one should be properly clad. That is not, however, the same as saying:
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where's their personal interest in doing something well? Fancy taking up a sport and not striving to understand all the fundamentals?!?
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The fundamentals required to be safe on blues and greens are not all that great, and one shouldn't brand people who are happy to stay at that level as morons. If you are properly dressed, you can control your speed, you can stop, and you confine yourself to easy, groomed slopes, then you will be safe to yourself and to others. Helmets are irrelevant to that proposition (except that you won't necessarily be safe if another out-of-control skier wipes you out - which happens, fwiw, to have caused me to start wearing a helmet, and is the only reason I wear one.) |
I certainly have not branded people who are happy to stay at that level as morons. Here is my original post that you reference. As you can see here, it is the oversimplistic argument "they're new, how would they know?" that is, IMO, moronic.
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| abc wrote: |
| I've skied with enough "intermediates" to know many don't even know what a side-slip is, while many aren't comfortable to do it when they most needed it. |
How sad for them but where's their personal interest in doing something well? Fancy taking up a sport and not striving to understand all the fundamentals?!?
Anyone about to argue "but if they're new to it how will they know what the fundamentals are?". STOP. That is an argument for morons. All you do is..... wait for it...... ASK. Astonishing.
Megamum, I salute you  . |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| flowa wrote: |
You seem to be exibiting a dramatic lack of logic. You supplied the figure "14,400 collisions reported last season in France" in an earlier post. As I have previously stated, if one is responsible for one's own risk mitigation against other accidents - trees, pylons, etc.... then the only debate 'for' everyone wearing helmets is to defend against collisions. Isn't that why you posted the figures?
The simple case is made by my example that the number of actual collision injuries vs the actual number of skiers makes the likelyhood of you being involved in one unbelievably remote.
The emotional string to the argument for everyone to wear helmets is unbalanced when you present a figure like "14,400 collisions in France last season" without looking at how many skiers there were in France that season too.
There are times when a helmet is appropriate but IMHO not everyone should wear one all the time. |
I supplied a simple statistic, which you then manipulated to suit your point of view. As I mentioned much earlier in the thread, statistics can be manipulated however you like. I mentioned this statistic simply because I came across it while reading a ski mag yesterday. I accept that it's a low number compared to the overall number of skiers, but that should be pretty obvious to anyone. But if the chance of a collision was so unbelievably low as you suggest, why do so many Snowheads have first hand experience of them happening? Probably because the vast majority of incidents are never formally reported. It's only the really bad cases i.e the 14,400 that ever get recorded. As I've been skiing regularly for many years, I just used my own experiences to decide whether or not to wear a helmet. The final deciding factor for me was how comfortable they are to wear. I really do prefer them to wearing hats on the mountain.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| flowa, but what about the unreported collisions? I have had loads |
Absolutely right but that's not what I was addressing. uktrailmonster delivered the "14,400 collisions in France last season" info into the thread as an indicator that the oft quoted 5% of all accidents are collisions - ergo everyone should wear a lid - was no longer relevant and that infact the number was higher because..."14,400 collisions in France last season" - ergo, more emotionally, everyone should definately wear a lid.
Well the numbers just don't add up and anyway you cut them, your risk of being in a collision is minute. Though, I accept it is higher for beginners/early intermediates and children who are limited to crowded pistes. So for them, go for it if you feel safer but please leave the choice of others alone.
The worry I have is that there is a ground-swell movement towards helmets becoming peer pressured in the first instance and compulsory soon thereafter without regard to the facts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| flowa wrote: |
....
The worry I have is that there is a ground-swell movement towards helmets becoming peer pressured in the first instance and compulsory soon thereafter without regard to the facts. |
Good point.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Probably because the vast majority of incidents are never formally reported. It's only the really bad cases i.e the 14,400 that ever get recorded. |
Good point, in other words, for the vast majority of incidents a helmet is not going to make an ounce of difference.
So why all the pressure for everyone to wear one all the time?
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I am trying to think of any other sport where you travel at over 50mph without head protection. Before the anti helmet lobby all junp on me I accept that at this stage it should be personel choice.
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riverman, most recreational skiers don't travel at over 50mph (intentionally) .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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riverman, Cycling? Motorcycling (not in the UK)? Parachuting? Driving?
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See over zealous health and safety culture pisses me off. CairnGorm have closed the funicular to skiers for the rest of the day - because it's snowing! At times i despair as if we weren't facing enough lost days due to persistent high winds, we don't need these increasingly questionable closures. Maybe the Funicular could remain open to skiers wearing a helmet? 
Goes to find a brick wall....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| flowa wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Probably because the vast majority of incidents are never formally reported. It's only the really bad cases i.e the 14,400 that ever get recorded. |
Good point, in other words, for the vast majority of incidents a helmet is not going to make an ounce of difference.
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I disagree with that conclusion.
Just because it isn't bad enough to require hospital attendance, that does not necessaril mean it wasn't painful, or a case of mild concussion that the victim just ignored. In either of which, a hlemet may well make a difference.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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riverman, How many people travel at anywhere near 50mph when skiing?
I though we had established that few travel at more than 20-30mph regularly.
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Guvnor, In my post I said while taking part in a sport. I think you will find that wearing head protection is the norm while taking part in the sports you mention.
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You know it makes sense.
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alex_heney, nice try but it's a bit weak.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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riverman, Sport, or leisure activity? Most posters on here ski as a leisure activity, so I listed the above as leisure activities - it would only be right to draw any sort of comparison....
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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boredsurfin, Dunno? When you can ski regularly at 50mph, in control and able to stop?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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alex_heney, Whilst having a ski lesson this season I was asked by the instructor what speed did i think I was skiing at . I guessed about 30-35 kph whereas the speed gun said 70kph ie about 40mph. I am not a fast skier so this was a bit of a suprise as I sometimes in certain situation ski faster. The point to remember is that we are not talking about the average speed but the ocasional top speed.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| flowa wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Probably because the vast majority of incidents are never formally reported. It's only the really bad cases i.e the 14,400 that ever get recorded. |
Good point, in other words, for the vast majority of incidents a helmet is not going to make an ounce of difference.
So why all the pressure for everyone to wear one all the time? |
a) There is no pressure for everyone to wear a helmet all the time. It's true that more people are freely choosing to wear one, but very few people think they should be mandatory. I certainly don't. I think on this thread only the OP believes they should be made compulsory. Run a poll on it if you don't believe me.
b) I choose to wear a helmet because I think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. You obviously don't from your posts, which is fine by me. Don't wear one then.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Guvnor, I would not ride a bike as a leisure activity on tarmac roads at 50 mph without some head protection , would you ?
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riverman, Don't ride a bike personally, but a lot of cyclists I know prefer not to wear one....
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riverman, You're pretty quick. I wear a gps thingy that stores my top speed and average for the day/session. Typical top speed is around 40kph / 25mph and average is down around 15.
Fastest I've clocked so far was 73 kph on a schuss which is less than 50mph. My two teenage daughters managed 93 kph through the speed trap at Wengen, but they were REALLY trying. 
As alex_heney, says above 20-30mph would seem a more 'normal' speed. Also there is a world of difference between 'occasionally' reaching nearly 50 mph on an empty piste in a schuss, and the sort of speed that's appropriate for a busy piste with beginners dotted about.
I do think your "I am trying to think of any other sport where you travel at over 50mph without head protection" is somewhat misleading in that regard. 50+ would be very much the exception not the rule.
BTW this from a US skiing info site: "SLALOM: In the slalom, competitors race down a steep slope on a course marked by alternating pairs of red and blue flags. These sets of flags are known as 'gates'. The object of the slalom is to ski through the gates in the fastest time possible. The total time is decided over two races, each on different courses, with the two results being added together to form a combined time. If a skier fails to ski through any gate, he or she is disqualified. Average speeds for top skiers in this event can be up to 50 km/h (30 mph). "
(my bold).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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AxsMan, Yes I would agree that it is only now and again depending on location and conditions that speeds over 70kph are achieved. In those situations I like to be wearing some head protection although as stated before this is a personel choice.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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riverman, Me too, and me too in that order
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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uktrailmonster, I think that if people were to answwer 100% honestly, you'd be surprised how many answered 'c' !!
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Guvnor wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, I think that if people were to answwer 100% honestly, you'd be surprised how many answered 'c' !! |
There's no doubt that some modern helmets do look quite good, but I think only teenagers would choose to wear one purely for fashion reasons. My view is that if you do choose to wear a helmet, then why not choose one that doesn't look like a wee wee-pot? You could say the same for motorbike helmets.
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Poster: A snowHead
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uktrailmonster, you missed b2) I don't wear a ski helmet and think people should be free to chose, and z) I wear a helmet but think they are a complete waste of time
I'd go for the simple:
I think wearing a Helmet should be:
1) optional for all
2) optional for adults compulsory for children
3) compulsory for all
Maybe with the addition of: I do/do not choose to wear one at present.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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AxsMan, Whatever, go for it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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uktrailmonster, same reason people change their ski's, jackets, boots etc every season - wrong colour, new technology available blah blah blah....surely the only reason you would change a helmet is if if had taken a serious blow, and was therefore possibly broken?
Or is it because it is predominantly a fashion item?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Guvnor wrote: |
....surely the only reason you would change a helmet is if if had taken a serious blow, and was therefore possibly broken?
Or is it because it is predominantly a fashion item? |
Both Scott and Rossignol advise that the helmets I have should be changed after 3 years - apparently the plastic characteristics change.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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hmm not really. That poll asks whether the pollee (is that a word) wears a helmet. This is not the same as asking whether they should be compulsory. (for example I do wear one, but don't think they should be compulsory).
The majority (60%) wear. My bet is that at least that percentage would vote for 'optional' as well.
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achilles, Really? I am guessing this is because of the temperature extremities and sunlight degrading the plastics....is this well published and supported scientifically, or a cunning marketing ruse? For the average punter, say 2 weeks a year, that is 6 weeks use - that'll screw the budget conscious ones amongst us right up. And for those who only manage a week, even less!! Are these helmets actually fit for purpose?
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I think I just lost the will to live.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| I think I just lost the will to live. |
are you suggesting that as a response to the poll that is being proposed?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Arno, uh, whatever.
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Guvnor, I'm not competent to comment authoritatively. Plastics can degrade with ultraviolet - but the can also do so just with time. This page goes into it a bit. I imagine for ski helmets, the major problems are UV,and leaching or migration. maybe an outdoor equipment specialist - or an industrial chemist - can comment further.
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FAQ
I hope you 
THERE IS ALREADY A POLL ON THIS FASCINATING TOPIC 